Trial and ERROR! If you just “try” a GP - you are likely to be dissapointed, for two reasons:
GPs are different. Short trials can be rather misleading. It takes time to unlearn what you do now and really begin to get the feel. Anyone can paddle with one right off, and they are not difficult in any way, they just get much better after your muscle memory from other paddles has faded a bit and you can begin exploring it on it’s own terms. That’s why many recommend ONLY using a GP for a while when you get one.
All GPs are not created equal. Not by a long shot. Frankly, at the extreme some are terrible - like heavy clubs with no bite. Others are amazing. Being new to them, how will you know if it’s the paddle?
I do not say this in regards to anyone’s paddle making skills in particular (Many make very fine GPs), and everyone else has already hit on my main issues with the commercial offerings.
Rather, I say it in regards to your paddling skills Andrew. From what I read here, you like to go fast, you use light weight quality gear. You primarily paddle with a wing, right?
For you: The Superior Carbon (88 or 89).
As others have noted - the Superiors are excellent designs and represent the traditional and most versitile designs very well. The carbon takes it up a notch to wing paddle weight range (actually lighter in the water - as in LESS then zero).
Even if you are looking at GPs with no regard to speed, the efficiency of the carbon paddle over distance is hard to ignore. Makes a great first GP - search the archives for several reasons why.
If you are mainly interested in Greenland rolls/skills, or just want the feel of wood, there are many wood paddles that may serve your needs well.
BTW, I think a GP can be a nice compliment to a wing. Both improve the other. Wing’s a better speed tool, but GP’s a lot more fun.
To look at this another way: Would you look for an “inexpensive” wing paddle? With price being more important that design or weight?
Best bet may be to seek out local GPers and swap paddles for a few miles. Not as good as committing and using one exclusively for a while, but something’s better than nothing. The more the better.
I am the e-bay paddle guy Hello Longshadow, Obsurf, and Ayerloom! Thanks Longshadow for getting me tuned in. I did not intend to raise such a ruckus with my paddles. As bnystrom says, these $60 paddles are very basic and not the best paddle to do the job. I make them to fill a void in the market full of overpriced stuff. Because of interest I have expanded and am still expanding the line to make better paddles to fit more needs. One is custom one piece cedar paddles built to your measurements. Another is laminated paddles using spruce and cedar for an even prettier paddle. These have the nice ovular looms the majority prefer. On the lower end, i am beginning to build paddles with the basic “stick loom/shaft” and 32" blades of cedar for lighter weight and more appropriate 20" loom length. As with all the things I do, I wish to improve the end product to meet client demand so input is greatly appreciated. Bnystrom has some good points (as well he should if I understand correctly!). The E-bay paddle is very similar to the Betsie Bays as that was the paddle I was originally contracted to build. I made some minor changes in the shoulder and loom, and have recently narrowed the blade for better comfort in extended paddle positions. I am by no means an expert at kayaks and paddling, but I am a fifth generation carpenter who did not like building houses simply because I cannot build a square box! So I started my boat shop in 1990 at age 19, and here I am.
Regarding Wierd: I love to fish Salmon on Lake Huron and purchased a bunche of stuff from Supertackle on E-Bay over a three day period. I understand cynicism Ayerloom! I do not blame you for wondering.
I hope you don't mind but here is the text of the email that was sent to ayerloom. Please let us know if any of this information is outdated and needs to be updated.
>Dear jpquack,
>
>"hi - what would this cost made from western red cedar, and what would be
>the weight, and what is the weight of your mahogany paddle - thanks - john"
>
>There are many options here, but wieghts can vary from 28 oz for my
>standard loom with cedar blades to 40 oz for a 220 cm paddle with 32"
>Mahogany blades. If you are a very experienced paddler, you may not like
>my standard looms. They are designed for cheap production to offer an
>economical paddle for those wishing to try traditional technique but not
>wanting to spend a fortune. A solid one piece cedar with ovular loom runs
>$120-$130 and is one of our best paddles. Loom is the length you request.
>E-mail for measuring instructions if you need them. My standard paddle
>with cedar blades, 28" loom, 28" blades runs $75, the 20" loom with 32"
>blades is $80. These are the lightest because of loom size (7/8 to 15/16 x
>1 1/4) with a small flat on each side. If you choose a custom paddle with
>laminated cedar/spruce shaft and laminated blades, cost is $150. Plus
>shipping for any choice you make.
>
>Regards,
>Eric.
>
updates Thanks for posting the message Schizopak, Is pretty current as I believe I just typed it this morning.
I agree with greyak, it is harder to unlearn than to learn right the first time. I do not like my cheap paddles very much anymore, although I have paddled with one a lot. I have learned much in the past two months. After building longshadows paddle, and some e-mails from a gentleman from N.C. I decided to narrow up and lengthen the blades. Much better! But some dealers are starting to request them. I think they see big mark-up potential. I jsut do not know why some similar paddles are so expensive.
Superior styled paddles After veiwing the Superior paddle, building one is not a problem. I do not no what that thing in the center of the loom is though.
you are absolutely right and if i had unlimited funds i’d definitely go for the same carbon gp you have, based on your reviews and others. but i’m not really sure i’d end up using the gp very much. i haven’t used my euro paddle in probably 5 years, except for rare paddles with someone i know to be fairly slow. i’m just sort of intruiged about what it would feel like to paddle with a gp. i wish i lived nearer to the water, so that i didn’t feel quite so compelled to get the maximum exercise “bang for my buck” out of my limited paddling time (one of the reasons i like the wing, i guess).
I sort of assume anyone doing GPs would be familiar with them and others. I post the link in case not, but more for those interested in GPs who may not to familiar with the shapes, as the plans show the cross sections nicely. May help them understand what we’re talking about.
These are the starting point for many good paddle makers - who then go on to modify them to suit their needs. Not a set plan, but a good reference point to a good traditional style paddle.
If I were going to have you carve a paddle, I’d want to be able to talk in relation to these plans, and excellent paddles like the Superiors. If you have those for reference points, I’m sure you could do a paddle I’d think was pretty good. If BBK is your reference point (shape - not quality, which is fine), we’d have trouble getting to a good result. They’re just too different - and basic dimensional changes are not enough.
BTW - The Superior has the most comfortable shoulders I’ve seen so far (To be fair, I’ve only held Cricket, Turtle, Mitchell, one - I can’t remember company (a two piece with metal ferrule) and 5-6 home carved paddles. Soft & smooth transition, but enough. If you haven’t held one, buy, beg, borrow one and check it out. I will forever be corrupted by these, and all other (commercial) GPs have a lot to measure up to.
I’m sure others have favorites as well, and actually I’m surprised at the fairly universal praise for Superior (even from those who carve and use their own). Usually we’re all more opinionated L. I got my carbon when I knew nothing about GPs except what I’d read. Got lucky it was so good.
I would like to add wood paddle, but it’s got a hard act to follow. I have no shop - so can’t experiment with my own. Your price is nice, but I’ve done more than my share of blind kayak gear purchases, and don’t think my luck can hold.
I’d pay more to get one that’s “right” (but the Superior woods are pretty steep - I’d upgrade my wing for the next Big paddle purchase). This would be more for rolling and potentially rougher treatment. Edges need not be quite so fine, etc.
The WRC Turtles listed here in the classifieds for $120 look like a decent deal too. The one I held was nice and seemed to have pretty traditional lines.
Dilemma "I’m just sort of intrigued about what it would feel like to paddle with a GP"
Yeah, that’s how it always starts L! Consider this:
If you get something substandard - odds are higher you won’t use it.
If you get a good one, you might not use it either, but at least you’re not setting yourself up for that. If you fork out more $ - you’ll be more committed and stick with it longer. The more you use one, the better they get.
I bit the bullet (tax refund), and because of the expense I didn’t dabble. I put the euro under the rear bungees and left it there for a month, then 2, then 4, then I bought a storm to replace it. No more euros.
I used a euro (decent carbon) on a rental recently. Took me 2 minutes to adjust to the different boat, over 20 to get used to a euro again, and I was conscious of the paddle the whole time. Euros really suck that bad in comparison - once you’ve adjusted to a GP.
GP is somewhat similar to a wing in terms of smoothness and lack of flutter, but the GP adds buoyancy and near effortless control/symmetrical balance as well. You won’t get the same stuck in concrete feel - at first.
One one level - it’s just a paddle. You’re happy with wings and don’t really need anything else.
On another level - a GP gives you a totally different connection to the water. This is the part that comes gradually, the part that’s almost subconscious - until you go back to something else that doesn’t have it.
Plus - you’ve got a good wing stroke - and using a GP with a wing stroke is a kick! Bring your hands in a bit (have to with GP grip) and you’ve got it (upper hand will cross more at chest than eye level). Now drop the whole thing toward your lap a bit, lower the padlde angle to around 45 degrees, catch softer, power increasing through instead of full on at catch - with a bit of an ab crunch replacing some (not all) of the rotation - and release later and you’ve got the “Greenland” stroke (not that there really is such a thing). GPs will self release like a wing (mine is so buoyant it literally jumps out! I can let go and have it jump into my hand).
But $ is always a factor. How about this?
If you spend less for less - and don’t like it, how much of it can you get back? Will padle “x” sell used?
If you don’t like the Superior, same question. I think it would sell as well as a slightly used Epic wing, but market is definitely smaller. I wouldn’t know if they sell, as I almost never see used GPs at all, and NEVER a used carbon GP. Anyone else seen one?
Let me repeat that. I regularly scan several online classifieds, and everything on eBay with “kayak” and sometimes even “paddle”, “Greenland”, “Inuit”, etc. In two years I have seen two used GPs - both on Pnet I think: a Betsie Bay Inuit (there now), and a Feathercraft Klatwa (2 piece) a year or so ago (was sold before I even asked about it).
Given that I’ve seen dozens of even the best wings and euros available, what does this mean? There are very few GPs? With a dozen commercial makers and many more private carvers - I doubt it. Maybe GP aficionados are not tech savvy enough to be online? I think we’ve already killed that one. What’s left? People who really give them a shot don’t give them up. Even when they move on to others they tend to keep the earlier ones - or share them with friends. People who don’t stick with them - usually only borrowed one. Imagine borrowing a surf ski for an hour, having never paddled one before. How many would then buy one? I’d have left mine right there - and not though twice about it - except it was already mine.
Anyway - I think you could resell a Superior carbon. Is the experiment worth the depreciation?
I see Euro paddlers that don’t switch either have very specific use reasons (surf, rock gardens, 10+ years of habits, etc.), or most often just “try” a GP and don’t stick with it long enough get to the good part.
As a dedicated wing paddler - I really have no way to know if it would be for you or not. After a wing, a euro feels like a bad wing. After a GP, a euro feels like a shovel.
Anyone out there got a decent loaner? I’m not nice enough to loan mine out for more than a few miles - when I can see it!
All I can tell you is that GP/Wing can compliment each other. I have use for both. Also, that Q700 as a lower foredeck than most Brit boats - and is very well suited to a GP, even if yours does have a rudder!
What you may give up in speed you more than get back in other areas. When I’ve raced with my GP - there have been wings ahead, and wings and euros aft. I’m not fast. If I trained, I’d be able to cut out a good chunk of the wing pack. You don’t give up ANY speed over a euro. You can also get as much of a workout as you can handle.
Lucked out and found vertical grain cedar at Home Depot in the deck materials - cheap. Used Chuck Holst plans. Tools: several handsaws - Sharksaw Japanese style pull saw worked best, a really cheap Stanley plane, borrowed Record spokeshave, borrowed sharpening stones, pencil, tape measure, ruler. Lots of mistakes but none critical.
Loner Paddle I would consider loning a mid to high end paddle for the person in question to try. Jus t pay for the shipping. If you like it, buy it. If not, ship it back. Feel free to use it for a month or two before deciding. Just e-mail me for questions and details.
I think we're all grateful that you are adding an affordable, quality alternative to the market out there. If I had the means for quicker production, I'd do the same with my GPs, but I'm limited by space and tools (and time). How long does it take you to make one, from raw materials to finished product? Mine take about 10 solid hrs, but my only power tool is a band saw. 60 bucks is a true bargain! BTW - how many have you sold through Ebay so far?
AND... your offer to loan a paddle for a trial run is indicative of a truly honest business with the customer's best interest in mind. Cheers to you - keep it up! I hope the starter of this thread takes you up on your offer to ship one down for a test run.
Shipping loaner paddles My recent experience with purchasing a GP suggests that shipping might be rather unattractive. UPS Select was about $22 one way from NH to WV. UPS damaged the first paddle on a conveyor. So you would have $44 invested in shipping with a good chance of damage to your stick.
padded cardboard sleeve Mine came in a cardboard sleeve, padded out with paper. Just an idea here, but would UPS and others accept a resusable tube for shipping? I’m thinking of something like a capped 4" pvc tube with shaped minicel in each end and a 4" dia. c-shaped cuff for the loom. It could even be drilled at the opening end to accept a zip-tie type seal.
shipping a paddle Good idea Jim! Would add to cost, but if buying a $100+ paddle, It would be worth it. I have shipped 30+ paddles in about 2 months and had two slightly damaged.
Shipping a GP My paddle was shipped in a 4in diameter pvc tube with end caps. There was a foam cutout in the cap that locked the paddle in the tube. Came from Flyfisher kayaks in Ohio to Central CA absolutely perfect. Cost was $10 for the tube and around $20 for UPS.
I haven’t spent much time with a euro, but I heartily aggree with your GP musings.
How I do it! zkalsent, I replied to your post once, but I hink it timed out, as it disapeared.
Roughly speaking, it takes ( don’t be to shocked) about 1.5 hours. But I do it in a limited production manner as space or tools are not an issue. I also build and restore wooden boats, so my shop is large! And I am pretty good with my planes and belt sander. Please don’t think I beleive you are not, you and I just use two totally different construction techniques. And these are very basic paddles, which like Bnystrom, I feel to be of inferior design. To solve this, I have added longer blades to give a more proper loom length and not be so limiting in use. I really only have a vague idea of proper technique, but enjoy getting feedback to build a better paddle!
I have sold 30+ on E-bay, quite a few bought multiple paddles. E-bay is a pain where I sit and when current auctions are up, I will only be trying to auction all the junk collectin dust in my shop.
Regarding Business Ethics: Make your clintele happy and life is good! give them what they want if humanly possible. One last thing, I do not mean my posts to solicit business though I do not mind it. I just wish to answer questions arising from the E-bay thing.
Yup, considered extra shipping cost. Also realised that if a prospective customer decided to buy the paddle, there would be no sense in shipping back the empty container as it would cost more than the materials, and they’d be easy enough to make. On the upside, it wouldn’t take much to make one of these into a paddle carrier for a roof rack. Just two small u-bolts, four nuts, and four holes. Heck, I’m thinking about making my own now!
