Jay, thanks. Teaching will be for long boat techniques. It's a sea kayaking club. I'll edit the OP.
I'm sure we'll teach sweep layback roll. If the person can't lay all the way back, then hybrid sweep-to-C.
I've studied your video, Jay. A must watch for long boat first roll IMHO. Very helpful idea on extending the euro paddle and holding the blade with the inboard hand.
Celia, thanks. I meant to say "forward finishing rolls." I'll edit that.
I can roll without extending the paddle, GP and euro. I can scull on my side or back with the GP. I've never tried prolonged side sculling with a euro blade though. I can do the little bit where you just dip your head in the water that EJ shows in his Vid.
I don't think I can do a pure C-to-C. I always use some sweep. I would certainly not try to teach a WW class.
I might slip in an angel roll or two before the class starts, just to give the illusion of superior skill ;-). If anyone asks, I'll tell them that it's not that difficult.
offside is onside I had a tough time learning to roll. The reason - I’m right-handed, but I roll with what everyone thinks is OFFSIDE for a rightie - if I set-up to go over, my left hand is forward and I go over the right side of the boat. This feels natural to me, but people had insisted on teaching me on the other side, which never worked. I’m just now learning to roll on my offside.
The other thing that people tried to teach me and it didn’t work for me is what I call “over-and-back.” By this I mean setting up, then flipping to the side you aren’t set up on and come back up. What this did to me is set my hips wrong and it took a LOT of effort to get the boat to flip this way (and I came out of the carefully positioned set-up position). I didn’t get anywhere until I “dove” in the set-up side and did a 360-roll. This allowed my body to float out to the side and get my hands up and out. But what happened as far as I can tell is that it was easier for the instructor, because the student could roll into their arms and do a progressively deeper roll. It just didn’t work for me.
Speaking of body position, I was having lots of problems with my roll until someone finally got me looking at my paddle ALL the way out to the side (I do a sweep-to-C roll and paddle 95% WW these days).
Hope some of this helps - what it comes down to is not everyone is going to learn the same way or roll the same way. If one explanation or method isn’t working for someone, try approaching it a different way.
Flexibility of the instructor. This really does illustrate the need for flexibility of the instructor.
I’m right handed and my on side for sweep is also the left hand outboard. I found the half roll helpful though. Not critical, but helpful. The paddle was already on top of the water ready to go. So everyone is different, which is the main point.
Would love to hear more about difficulties students have had. (I keep using the word “student” for lack of a better word.)
Pure CtoC If you mean the bit where you really REEEACH out from the boat with the blade out and above the water, slap it down and come up in all in one relatively fast motion (what some have told me is a pure CtoC), it may not be all that practical for some women anyway. I find that I simply can’t get that kind of clear of some boats because of the depth of the cockpit - it takes more length than my torso to get the paddle that couple of so inches above the water. Can do one in my Explorer LV when I’ve been practicing, can’t in the Piedra, that kind of thing. For most boats, sweeping to 45 degrees from the boat then doing the last half works more easily.
I’ve not tried to work with anyone on a roll. But I have shown folks what you get out of lower body control by hanging in a scull and rotating the boat up and down a bit while explaining. It seems to help some.
thoughts on your instructor questions… >What are the keys to success in teaching?
To be a good rolling instructor, you need to be positive and instill confidence in the student. You have to KNOW that the student will be rolling that very same session and that it will be EASY. Also, you need to have a complete understanding of the roll. Read Paul Dutsky’s “The Bombproof Roll and Beyond” (which Greg Stamer originally recommended to me.), watch “The Kayak Roll” video, and watch “EJs Rolling and Bracing.” I watched, read, and studied more about rolling AFTER learning to roll than I ever did before and I find much more value in those resources from an instructor’s perspective than a student’s. Rather than simply reciting the superficial hip-snap, head dink, layback, tips that a parrot can recite back, provide true insights regarding how and why the kayak rolls up and how the student can use their body to encourage this motion. Finally, don’t forgive poor technique. You’re passing on an important safety technique and if they are rolling up with poor form, correct it immediately as bad habits will be nearly impossible to break if they are ingrained for a long time.
What are the pitfalls to teaching?
Ignoring liability, the pitfalls are that you can get a swollen head. Realize that even though you are in an “instructor” or “coach” role, you are merely passing on an extremely basic skill and be humble about it (something that I have to remember more often as the “kid”). Also, there is the danger of not taking proper responsibility for the trust your student has placed in you. I believe that 99% of the time, when a student fails to roll, it’s a failure of the instructor rather than the student. They can’t help not knowing what they don’t know, but we can help how we communicate to them our guidance. Oh and you lose some personal practice time each time you hop out of your boat to help someone out but that’s no big deal.
What would you consider ideal motives for wanting to teach on a volunteer basis?
If you’re using coaching as some sort of power trip, that’s bad but other than that, don’t know if motives really matter. Teaching rolling is fun, rewarding, and it raises the general skill of both the student and the instructor. Of all the things and skills that I have accomplished in my short kayaking life, becoming a good rolling instructor and the success of my students are the things I’m most proud of.
What advice would you give someone thinking of being a volunteer roll instructor?
Learn everything you can about the roll in all its forms (Greenland style, Euro style, whitewater, etc.) and use that diversity of knowledge to strengthen your ability to teach the roll. Work with another skilled instructor and learn how to critique and correct the small details that make the biggest difference. I think it’s great that you’re looking to teach the roll. We need a lot more folks like you out there if rolling is ever to be a sea kayaking “norm”.
I can roll the boat back and fourth while sculling, over on myself then toward upright. I like to demonstrate that while “hip snapping” off the bow of the student’s boat, then them off mine, to get the student to really roll the boat over on themselves then roll it back up with their legs and hips.
I really appreciate all the thoughtful conversation.
There may not be a lot to comment on here, but I thought I’d tell you a little more about my situation and plans.
I’ve studied the EJ, Jay B, and Dubside videos. A couple of you mentioned “The Kayak Roll.” I will order that.
I studied Dutky’s book, too. It was a really slow read before I could roll. I read most of it after I could roll. I agree, it's a great read after you can roll.
I think a strong point will be my ability to explain components of the roll and how they help you to roll.
As I mentioned, a weak point is experience, both in rolling, and in teaching the roll. The rolls I do I do well though. As far as building up a quiver of tricks for teaching, that only comes with experience, so I have to start somewhere. I’m stepping up the informal teaching at pool sessions, but am admittedly a little stingy with my time, so I can roll too.
I _am_ somewhat rushing into this. I offered to teach a class in the March/April time frame, just in case it helped. I was kinda surprised that the training coordinator/instructor wants to check me out. He taught me to roll, so he knows me and how long I’ve been rolling.
I had mentioned that I would really like to put out an invite on the internet for people to camp out a couple weekends this summer at a lake, and hold a sort of roll retreat. That would be great because we would have plenty of time, and there would be time for teachers to have fun paddling and rolling, too. The coordinator replied to remind him later and he could use me at their club weekend patterned after TIKS (Traditional Inuit Kayak Symposium) in the fall. That’s really my goal, to be ready to teach at TIKS.
One concern I have is if I bomb in the trial session a few weeks from now, he might write me off for teaching at TIKS, even though that’s a ways away. He's a reasonable guy though, and I have a little bit of experience helping people roll at the pool, so hopefully this will work out. He realizes I'm not an old pro and partly wants to get me on a training track I think.
I don't think my motive is ego. I have some ego about rolling itself, but not about teaching. My motives for teaching are:
- It’s rewarding to share my knowledge and sills to help people, just like people help me.
- Give back to the club.
- And last but not least, to get some priority in club offered classes. I really want to take the surf zone class for example, but it books up right away. If I’m a volunteer teacher though, the training coordinator will certainly get me in. Similarly with TIKS, if I teach I will get in automatically. Also it doesn't hurt for making connections with other paddlers.
Anyway, thanks for all the good conversation. I do enjoy this sport, and am looking forward to developing along these lines.
If your student panics and somehow hurts themselves, theoretically they can sue you. Actually that's pretty much the case with all aspects of kayaking instruction. Some people try to protect themselves with insurance, certification, and waivers. I just try not to worry about those kinds of things and I simply try to enjoy and share the sport.
That is one great post Paul, relax and have fun. This thread, though positive worries me a bit that this whole being asked to teach in your club is maybe getting to be too much of a geek ego thing… Probably not, but gotta watch that shit…too much of it. Teaching a good forward stroke is harder. Rolling is easy, and easy to teach…don’t over geek it…keep it simple and fun.
Great thread thanks for the post Although I have been instructing for years it is always important to go back and reflect on what you are doing, how you are doing it, and why you are doing it. Lots of food for thought here.
I sure would’ve liked to do a better job with this clip and had planned to go back and do it again (at least the audio/script) but that just never happened. Anyway, I like to use this method of holding the kayak (note how my arms are wrapped around the bow). As long as the paddler lays back a bit you can rotate the kayak up. This allows them to practice without the instructor in the way. It also gives the instructor a good veiw of paddler.
Thanks, it’s all good. I’ll have to try standing more forward like that. I’ve been standing right at the coaming. During the sweep roll it’s hard to see what’s happening with the paddle from there.
Mine either. There’s a strong tendency for a lot of people in the beginning, me included, to want to push your self upright early in the sweep. Trying to get the job done, so to speak.
I think a good area to stress is that you don’t push down on the paddle at all during the first 2/3 of the sweep. You are just sweeping out to get your torso close to the surface of the water and your boat starting to roll upright as a result. After about 120 degrees, then you are starting to lean on the paddle for support to sit up.
Combine this with a leg lift (or I might describe it as a lap pivot too) just as you’re starting to lean on the paddle to sit up, and keep your head low, and your up! At least with some practice.
I’m just doing the explanations hear for practice and in case it helps someone and in case someone wants to contribute a on a better or alternative way to explain it.
I like hearing about difficulties or misunderstandings people had in the beginning. Thanks Davejjj.
don't really "lean " on the paddle at all for a layback sweep roll. The paddle helps keep your body on the surface while your legs rotate the boat up. and then you float/glide/flow onto the back deck......no leanning on the paddle