See subject. I'm fairly new to the sport (and love it so far), am a long-torso'd 5' 10", 230 lbs (and losing), and am interested in kayaking primarily on larger lakes, San Francisco Bay, and on the ocean.
Could see myself eventually doing some weekend trips (2-3 days max), but probably no true 'expedition' voyages (never say never though).
Basically, I want to buy a 1st kayak for myself that will NOT be a chore to learn/develop with (i.e. overly tippy/unstable, fragile, hard to hold an edge with, hard to turn/maneuver, difficult to roll or rescue with, etc), yet is capable ENOUGH that it won't hold back my growth in the sport and/or is so slow that I won't be able to keep up with the group unless I paddle like Superman. =[
It should also be as SAFE as possible, i.e. front and rear bulkheads/good flotation, tight enough cockpit that a sprayskirt keeps the water out, etc... so I'm guessing I don't want a rec kayak.
I'd also like a kayak that I can actually TRY OUT extensively beforehand, so no 'Factory Direct' stuff or mondo obscuro lines that have almost zero distribution.
My research thus far seems to point towards the Dagger Alchemy 14.0L and Wilderness Systems Tempest 170, but if any of y'all can expand my group of 'Usual Suspects', please chime in.
Thanks for any and all help. :)
230 lbs _ ?
Get a 17’. the Tempest is a good choice. You want enough boat to keep you up without getting to wide. This way it will be faster (easier to travel with). From here, you really have to try them to see how they feel for you - comfort of seat, fit, stability etc. You want nice thigh braces that you will need to control the boat for various maneuvers and if you learn to roll.
at 5 -11 and 210
the Zephyr 16.0 has been my partner through a lot of learning. I liked the fit a lot better than the 170 Tempest.
I also liked the fit in the large Alchemy, and in the Eddyline Fathom - although I couldn’t swallow the higher price.
Having just demoed a bunch of kayaks
at Paddlefest, I would suggest the P&H Scorpio. I was looking for kayaks for our club with near the same qualities as you’re looking for: stable enough for beginners, but still a kayak that will allow and help a paddler grow there skills, instead of limiting them.
The scorpio is very stable, is a great boat for learning skills like edging, is very responsive. I like the overall quality and outfitting.
A cheaper option (and a step down) is the Nifty 430. Very stable, but responds well to edging. A bit slower, heavier than the Scorpio.
“tippy/unstable"
It is important to understand that “tippy” is not “unstable” and that “stable” can mean “will tip you over”. A boat that seems stable because it is wide (24” or so) and has a relatively flat bottom is a nightmare if you get caught in a sudden storm with 4’ waves. A boat with minimal primary stability (tippy) but good secondary stability (solid on edge) is your best choice for “stability”. There is a learning curve but you will not regret the outcome – paddling a boat that rides the waves while you easily adjust. Like riding a horse. A little fear at the beginning has a big payoff later when you confidently use your “loose hips”.
That advice is well taken, Dr.D…
Yes Dr.D, I have been made aware that too much initial stability is actually a BAD thing… wide, flat-bottom boats are good at keeping a paddler perpendicular to the water’s surface. Thing is, what if the water’s surface is a significant wave? Over you go… booosh. =(
So no, I don’t want a recreational kayak/barge.
What I’m guessing I want is something that has just enough initial stability that I’m not constantly fighting to stay upright and (probably more importantly), on long outings, will allow me to actually relax and kick back at times.
Far as secondary stability goes, something that I can put up on an edge easily and stay there easily would seem to be nice. Do I need a hard chine for that? Tall deck/sides?
Initial and secondary stability
While it’s true that high initial stability won’t prevent you from flipping, the converse relationship isn’t necessarily true either.
The Prijon Barracuda has very low initial stability and no secondary stability.
P&H Scorpio has high initial stability and high secondary stability.
I don’t think too much initial stability is a bad thing. Too wide a kayak creates limitations. Low secondary stability isn’t good, but it’s independent of initial stability.
The analogy of a kayak sitting perpendicular to the surface of the water on the side of a wave gives a general idea of why a wide flat kayak isn’t the best in rough conditions, but kayak design is more complicated than that analogy suggests. That example demonstrates why a wider kayak may be more likely to make you seasick. Secondary stability though, is what happens to the forces acting on the kayak when one side starts to submerge while the other side lifts.
Modern kayak design moved towards higher initial and secondary stability, partly by having a V shape in the bow and stern, tapering to a flat bottom in the middle of the kayak. Rockpool, Tiderace, Cetus, Valley Etain, Atlantis Spartan all use this design principle to some extent, from what I understand.
HArd chines doesn’t create more secondary stability. It creates an angle where the kayak feels like it can sit comfortably on edge, whereas a rounded chine tends to have a more even transition to being on edge. I think it’s more a matter of preference. Of course kayak design is complicated - all aspects of a design affect each other.
You want a sea kayak
It sounds to me like you might be over-thinking the stability thing. With a few minutes of seat time, most sea kayaks will not feel uncomfortably tippy to you. You can relax on a trip in nearly any kayak once you’re accustomed to it.
Your next step is to go try some boats. Go to some kayak shops, and sit in boats. Sea boats. Like a Scorpio or Cetus, or Tempest 170, or Explorer HV, or dozens of other good sea kayaks.
Figure out what fits you in the shop, and then demo a couple on the water. Sometimes combining a demo with a semi-private lesson (with a certified instructor - not just with a salesperson) is a really great way to get introduced to the sport and get advice on boat selection.
Resist the temptation to buy a “beginner boat”. If you want to do sea kayaking, get a sea kayak. You don’t need a shorter wider boat for learning to sea kayak. You’ll do better in a proper boat.
my $0.02
I am 5’11" 235 lbs. I own a Wilderness Systems Tempest 170 and a Wilderness Systems Tsunami 145.
I bought the 170 used off craig’s list and since I was used to my rec boat barges it was too tippy at first for me to relax in. When I get into bad chop or quartering waves I have to focus hard on the boat. I bought the 145 shortly after that and got a 140 for my wife (140 is way to cramped for me). I am much more relaxed in the 145, can play with my camera in the surf etc , I know it’s not going to dump me but I can still edge it. The tsunami is 24" and the tempest is 21" wide. I like the Tempest 170 and if that was my only boat I would probably be alot more comfortable in it, but it’s something you gotta work on. If I’m out for a day trip to the close in islands I prefer the tsunami which I could highly recommend as a beginner boat. I don’t need the extra speed of the tempset since I have to pace myself for my wife to keep up when I’m in the 145 anyway and it’s alot more relaxing ride. If I were in a race or with more advanced paddlers I would take the 170. If you are just starting out and get something too advanced then you won’t stay with it long enough to get good enough to handle your boat. If you know your going to stay with it, the 170 is a good boat but you better know how to rescue yourself if your on anything besides flat water.
I will also add (drum roll please because this is a change of opinion for me) take some lessons. I finally did after paddling for over a year and studying on You Tube. By the time I took the lessons I had already hammered most of the stuff out but it would have made it alot easier to begin with and there were a couple fine points I took away from the class. If you buy from a shop they can probably set you up.
Remember the key word- FIRST kayak.
another good mid-price line
While the WS Tsunami line tends to be one of the most common in local outfitter shops, I’ve begun to notice that many of those outlets are also stocking P & H’s moderately priced Venture line of plastic kayaks, especially the Easky series – you’d fit the Easky 17. P & H is known for higher end well-designed glass and composite boats and they have brought some of that design to these kayaks. You may want to look for one of the Easkys to try out. These British made boats are in the same price range as the Tsunamis and personally, I find the design more enjoyable to paddle and the outfitting nicer. They are also quite a bit lighter, model for model. One of my paddling buddies has a Tsunami 140 and we have switched off between it and my Easky 15LV (10 lbs lighter but similar dimensions). The Easky is faster and edges much better (secondary stability is outstanding – I can get the coaming underwater and she won’t flip), also has excellent thigh hooks and a nicer seat and foot braces. It does so well in waves that I actually seek out large boat wakes and clapotis to play in. Not bad for a boat that you can often find on sale for under $1,000.
two words: learning curve
I like the recommendation for a Tempest. Can anyone chime in on fit for this person in an Aquanaut?
You are asking for two things that may be mutually exclusive to a certain degree. You might want to err on the side of “challenging” in order to extend your satisfaction with the boat you choose.
huge list - find a shop you like
There would be a huge list of boats that would work for you. The two you mentioned (Alchemy & Tempest) are both sea kayaks, but pretty different when compared to each other.
The Alchemy is a decent day touring boat, but great as a rock garden boat (one that you use to zig zag through rocks and such). You would have to pack pretty lightly to do a 3 dayer out of it. I have one and do use it for day trips. Other similar boats are the P&H Delphin and North Shore Aspect.
The Tempest is more of a touring boat, with better forward speed, a bit less maneuverability, and more storage space. Great for touring. Similar boats are Necky Chatham 17, various boats from Britain (Valley, P&H, North Shore, etc.), etc.
I would find a local shop to you that you like and start a relationship. This may limit your choices to boats to the brands they carry, but each shop usually has plenty to choose from that you will do just fine. The shops often have rent-to-own deals - you pay rental fees which can then be applied to a purchase. Also, if you haven’t yet, take the day long basic sea kayak class that the shop offers, which will give you some butt time in a boat, but also teach the basic skills.
You may want to also join a local club;
Bay Area Sea Kayakers - mostly SF and North Bay bask.org
Western Sea Kayakers - San Jose and Monterey www.westernseakayakers.org
There are a couple in the Central Valley, if you are closer to there. Lodi Paddle Club and Sacramento Sea Kayakers come to mind.
Stability is all in your head …
Come paddle my wavemaster strata waveski for 20 minutes and any kayak on the market will feel like an aircraft carrier.
I think there’s some truth to this
I certainly didn’t start out on the most stable boat but I had no frame of reference at the time. So when I try less stable kayaks, they don’t feel as tender as people told me they would.
Agree 100 percent
I have always said that boats don’t tip over.
People tip them over !
Jack L
Well said Jack
The toughest part of the kayak thing is getting a heavy boat back and forth to the water. A used kevlar boat that is 16 ft long with no rudder might be a good choice. A bad rudder is worse than no rudder because you have no way to push off with your feet. My 19 ft kevlar seda glider lists at 44#. It did the 20 miles around cape ann- blackburn challenge in 3.7 hours because it has understern rudder.
If money and storage are an issue , then consider my first boat. For about $150 you could buy used dagger animas white water boat that is 10.5 ft long and plenty stable to get nailed by waves. I shoved it into the trunk of my taurus with back seat folded down and a bungee on the trunk. The you could sell it and demo lots of different boats.
Weekend lessons are great. Please beware of pressure to buy fiberglass for 3 grand unless you are a doctor!
I 2nd The Zephyr
to put on your demo list. Very beginner-friendly and the most shin-friendly sea kayak I ever paddled.
Two different takes = crux of the debate
::pirateoverforty: I bought the [Tempest] 170 used off craigslist and since I was used to my rec boat barges it was too tippy at first for me to relax in. When I get into bad chop or quartering waves I have to focus hard on the boat. I bought the [Tsunami] 145 shortly after that… I am much more relaxed in the 145, can play with my camera in the surf etc , I know it’s not going to dump me but I can still edge it.
The tsunami is 24" and the tempest is 21" wide. I like the Tempest 170 and if that was my only boat I would probably be a lot more comfortable in it, but it’s something you gotta work on. If I’m out for a day trip to the close in islands I prefer the tsunami which I could highly recommend as a beginner boat. I don’t need the extra speed of the tempest… and it’s alot more relaxing ride. If you are just starting out and get something too advanced then you won’t stay with it long enough to get good enough to handle your boat. ::
::NateHanson: You want a sea kayak. It sounds to me like you might be over-thinking the stability thing. With a few minutes of seat time, most sea kayaks will not feel uncomfortably tippy to you. You can relax on a trip in nearly any kayak once you’re accustomed to it… Resist the temptation to buy a “beginner boat”. If you want to do sea kayaking, get a sea kayak. You don’t need a shorter wider boat for learning to sea kayak. You’ll do better in a proper boat. ::
Reading the two posts above, seems like this is the crux of the issue… whether or not someone can rapidly get used to the lower initial stability of true sea kayaks or not. I gather from the contrasting advice above that some ppl do, some ppl don’t.
I don’t know which I am, and likely won’t 'til I try out several kayaks of differing design, I’m guessing.
I do know that I don’t want a rec kayak/barge though, for a lot of reasons, safety among them. So I guess for me it’s coming down to what they’re calling the ‘crossover’ segment, i.e. ‘day tourers’, versus ‘true’ or hardcore sea kayaks, i.e. the really long and really narrow ones.
Will be interesting/fun to see how it plays out. Can’t wait to try a bunch of different 'yaks. 
Bay Area Shop Recommendations?
::Peter CA: Huge list- find a shop you like... I would find a local shop to you that you like and start a relationship. ::
Terrific idea. Question is, which one?
I'm in the SF Bay Area, btw.