Bay Area Info
I would contact these folks about taking a few lessons and trying out different boats:
http://www.seatrek.com/pages/classes/scrollpage.htm
and Kayak Connection in Moss Landing.
At 210 lbs, if you really think you are going to end up doing three day trips on the ocean on the North California Coast you are going to need a full on seakayak with some capacity.
Plastic - look at Prijon Kodiak.
Fiberglass look at Valley Nordkapp
Both boats can be found used from time to time, especially if you join a club.
Valley Aquanaut
was mentioned by someone above. I would second this. My wife has one. Quite good stability for a beginner. But also an excellent boat as you get more advanced - in fact, one the very best boats there is for choppy and rough conditions. it’s a boat you will never outgrow.
Bay Area Kayaking! Highly recommended
Hi there–
In answer to the question, Kayak Connection is highly recommended for any paddling (including Kayaking & Stand-up-paddleboarding-- even taking out a windrider!). They’re on Facebook & Twitter as well as at kayakconnection.com. Enjoy!
-H
Whatever you decide on…
make sure you get something with a rudder. I recently bought a used 16’ Necky without a rudder and believe me, if you get caught on open water in 15+ mph winds you’ll wish you had it. The boat is almost impossible to control without it.
I thought it was all about skegs?
Rudder? I thought skegs were all the rage right now?
Anyone have thoughts on rudders vs skegs? Or is this the classic ‘tastes great/less filling’ debate of kayaking?
Main knock I keep hearing on rudders is that they inhibit skills development for newbs like me, and they make it harder to use the foot braces. There’s also more to go wrong mechanically too, I guess.
Main argument I hear against skegs is that they can’t help you turn, and pebbles can get caught in there and jam the skeg.
Rudders vs. Skegs
I’m sure if you do a search, you’ll find a few threads on this topic.
I find the debate a bit silly. Rudders and skegs are part of whole design of a kayak. It’s silly to put a rudder on a skeg boat and vis-versa (a few models offer either option, but I think that’s more a marketing ploy). Rudders and skegs do different things.
Boats with skegs are DESIGNED to have skegs, and and designed to have certain handling properties. Same goes for ruddered kayaks.
So the question is, what kind of kayak do you want? What characteristics do you want in your kayak?
Re: Rudders vs Skegs
::Watermark said: So the question is, what kind of kayak do you want? What characteristics do you want in your kayak? ::
Oh gosh WM, I guess I want what everyone else wants: everything.
You know… a boat that’s easy to turn, yet tracks great.
That would never think about weathercocking, yet is nimble.
That has good initial stability and great secondary stability.
Light, yet durable.
Comfortable, fun, and cheap.
Who cares if any of that is contradictory? The heart wants what the heart wants, LOL.
The above silliness aside, what I REALLY want is what I stated at the top of the thread: a boat that won’t hold me back too much as I grow in the sport, yet won’t make learning new skills a frustrating, teeth-gnashing experience.
That too is contradictory, possibly, but is probably a more honest goal than just saying “Gimme EVERYTHING.” And hopefully is much more achievable.
I second the earlier recommendation
I second the recommendation to try out a bunch of boats. When I first started paddling, I tried out ten or fifteen different types of boats. I had settled on a particular brand and model and was about to buy new when I saw a great deal on a Tempest 170 on craigslist. I bought it that weekend, but I wouldn’t have been ready to do that had a I not paddled one previously.
Interestingly enough, that boat felt a bit tippy when I first got it. I was a new paddler, though, and now, several years later, it feels like a tub compared to others I’ve paddled. I’m still happy with it, but I was really happy to have tried before I bought.
Find a used Valley Skerray
Will fit, paddles great, is a capable boat.
Aquanaut fit
The Aquanaut might fit, but my guess is that a new paddler that size would feel a little confined in it. Argonaut might be better.
I like the recommendation of a Venture Easky. The Tsunamis are good, but if you really intend to grow in the sport and develop edging, rolling, bracing, etc, the Tsunamis have some features that make those things more difficult, especially the shorter Tsunamis. The Venture Easky has more of a sea kayak hull shape, just with a bit more stability than top-end sea kayaks.
skeg and lessons
Most instructors will recommend that if you want to develop skills, get a skeg boat, and take a couple lessons.
Once you know what one is for, a skeg will turn you downwind, (or upwind) as easily as a rudder.
Tempest is a great boat to learn on …
... and grow with. My thought starting out were much the same as yours: rather than buying a successive wave of boats as your skills grow, find a boat that can grow with you.
With that said, I quickly sold my first boat and bought a Tempest 170 in plastic. These boats offer good stability both primary and secondary, are real sea kayaks, have room for camping, and best of all are forgiving. The T is a beginners boat that can handle anything out there and put a smile on the most skilled sea kayaker. There have been QC issues over the years, and they are now a Chinese boat (at least the glass one is), but there are plenty of these around and they can be had at a reasonable cost.
Various Valley and PH boats have been recommended. These are the Mercedes and BMW of the sea kayak world. You can start there, but the Tempest route lets you test the sport and learn more over time. Over time as your wants and needs evolve you might find yourself looking for something specific in a boat, which can lead you to something very different than what you are thinking of now. Boats are not investments, so its not worth buying your last boat first, when you don't really know what the last boat should be.
Most important, since most of us tend to recommend boats we like or have experience with, you need to go try on some boats for size and fit.
Awesome advice, Peter
Forgot to thank you for the above post, Peter. Exactly the kind of info I was looking for… thank you.
Tempest 170
Is a good boat. It my feel a bit tight for you at 230lb depending on your body type, so sit in one.
You will get comfortable with it quickly. And it will let you learn. Used plastic can be had for 600-900 depending on condition.
The 170 was my 3rd kayak within about 2 years of starting to paddle more seriously. The Tsunami 145 - the first and in between I had a very nice P&H With a model name that escapes me… When I moved from the tsunami to the 22" “real kayak” it felt exceedingly tippy in even the smallest waves where the tsunami felt reassuring. Soon (2 months?) the tipsiness disappeared and the tsunami felt like the little barge it is… The Tempest is stable.
The Zephyr 160 will also be great but is slower. Rolls even better than the Tempest 170 due to lower rear deck. Bigger cockpit too so. It might be more comfy for you. P&H Delphin also deserves a look if you are after maneuverability and playfulness over speed an packing volume… Many others…
don’t make skeg pr rudder a criteria
As above some boats are designed to work with skeg and some with rudder. There are ways to handle higher winds in a skegged boat if you take the time to learn. Get the boat that you like the overall feel and handle of. The rest will work itself out.
Instability
Sounds like you’re overestimating instability.
A ‘true’ sea kayak doesn’t have to be ‘hardcore’.
I help run a kayaking club - we get about 50 new members a year. Most are new to sea kayaking, many aren’t athletic or not used to being on the water. We have a range of kayaks, all of them ‘true’ sea kayaks, and it’s rare that a member has challenges balancing.
Questions to think about
quote:
what I REALLY want is what I stated at the top of the thread: a boat that won’t hold me back too much as I grow in the sport, yet won’t make learning new skills a frustrating, teeth-gnashing experience.
That’s not unreasonable at all. Here’s a few things to think about that may narrow your choices:
What water conditions will you be paddling in most of the time? Surf; exposed swell and waves; moving water; calm sheltered water?
How much camping touring will you do? Volume (and buoyancy) for gear is great if you need it, but will make it harder to control the boat if you don’t use it.
What skills do you want to develop, or what type of kayaking do you want to do? Fitness and racing? Surfing, play, rock gardening? Distance? On-water wildlife photography?
How much do you want to spend?
Once you’ve answered that, the next step is to find kayaks in that criteria that fit you, then take them out for test paddles.
Good luck!
Non-hardcore sea kayaks…
Sounds great. W-Mark, could you list some the more notable of these ‘non-hardcore, yet true’ sea kayaks? I think I might want to test paddle some of 'em.
I really DO have to buy a boat fairly soon… some of these rental places are just plain dismal. Like the one on the Foster City lagoon… 10 bucks per HALF-hour, and all you get is a crappy 9 ft sit-on-top, aka toy boat.
Downright sad. =[
Headwaters in Lodi
I saw from your other post that you are new to the SF Bay Area. I second a suggestion to visit the Headwaters shop in Lodi (find them in Facebook).
At 230 pounds, that will limit what kayaks are suitable - you want some room and to be able to pack some gear too. Dan (the owner, and a really nice guy and great paddler) usually has a number of kayaks that suit bigger people. With a long torso, you may be more comfy with a more stable kayak than those with a short torso - I know about that myslef. At Headwaters, there are a couple of kayaks to look at.
First is a used Nigel Dennis Explorer HV. I think is on on consignment at $2,000 used (maybe Dan owns it). It has been there a while and is in good shape, and a used boat is often a great first boat. You can paddle it for a year and it won't cost much when you sell. It is a great boat. He may still have a Valley Aquanaut HV that is in super condition.
Another boat to look at there would be the new Sterling Grand Illusion (~$4K). It is stable and very easy to control in any conditions. I don't think that you would find a boat that paddles better for you all around. It seems that everybody big size around here who demos one wants to buy one. A super fun boat.
Dan can give you a great demo, which is in effect a free lesson, and you will love where he takes you. You could also arrange for a demo on one of our club scheduled paddles.
Another boat you might like there is the Eddyline Journey or Fathom. You would be more likely to outgrow the Journey, but might like it better now.
Dan often gets used boats on trade in or consignment, or has a line on folks who are looking to sell to trade up. If nothing else, you will like your trip and demo.
You could also demo a few rentals with Sea Trek - they have some great trips and instruction. Be sure to take their trip around Angel Island - awesome. The same with CCK - some great instructors (e.g. Sean Morley) and trips, but I'd personally rather not deal with the owner.
Taking a day trip with instruction is a great way to learn about paddling and about a boat. The P&H Cetus/Scorpio and Valley Etain should be on your list to try.
But there are plenty of boats that will have enough stability and forgiveness for you at the start, and still be high enough performance for anybody. If you join the BASK (Bay Area Sea Kayakers) you will no doubt get some good input there, and they have a place where members list their used boats for sale too.
Doesn’t seem right for the poster
The fathom is definitely not a beginner’s kayak. Also, I’m not sure the poster would fit in it at 230 lbs. The Journey would fit him better and would be more stable at his current level, while also eventually taking him onto bigger water.
Budget is a question with any Eddyline.