Bay Area Native…
Bob, sorry if I gave the wrong impression… I’m new to the SPORT, not new to the Bay Area. In fact, I was born here, though I did move away for 13 years and didn’t come back 'til 1997. =]
Lodi, huh? A bit far away for me, since I live on the Peninsula, but Headwaters does sound like a killer shop. Am surprised that an inland shop would be so into sea kayaking, but I guess the big rivers/lakes/reservoirs out there would lend themselves to similar boats.
Many thanks for the info. 
Conflicting Advice on Initial Stability
Well, this is odd… I’m hearing in this thread that the Tempest 170 has pretty good initial stability, but I just got off the phone earlier today with a big Bay Area shop that I’ll be renting from tomorrow, and they say the Tempest 170 has almost NO initial stability.
They did say that the Tempest 180 has pretty good initial stability. So, that may be the boat I rent (pretty huge 'yak, though).
I guess you just can’t tell about stability 'til you actually PADDLE one. Initial stability is probably somewhat individual, both physically and mentally, I’m assuming.
A 5’1" woman with most of her weight in her lower body, and a 6’6" male paddler with a ton of upper body weight/muscle probably would experience initial stability very differently, would they not? So might someone who’s nervous/spooked easily, versus someone who doesn’t especially fear tipping over.
Hence the conflicting opinions, perhaps?
I Owned a 170. Still Own a 165.
They both have ample primary stability.
Necky Looksha 14…
I rented a Necky Looksha 14. Liked it quite a bit, seemed to have the ‘right’ amount of stability for me at this point in my development (24.5" beam). Was also reasonably fast, and I liked the seat.
However, this newb learned two things from my experience with the Looksha:
- I don’t like rudders very much. Great crutch, but sort of takes away any incentive to learn how to turn via paddling skills and/or lean/edging. Also don’t like the constantly moving foot pegs.
- Teeny tiny cockpits are not for me. 16.5" wide? Are you kidding? What am I, a canned tuna? =[
Even kinda slashed my thigh a bit on the coaming getting in. Urk.
So, I’m thinking I want either a day-tourer, or a ‘mild’ version of an expedition boat (almost the same thing?).
With a skeg, pleeze.
Try a Zephyr
It’s the most beginner-friendly, shin-friendly sea kayak I ever paddled. And it’s skegged.
Try a longer sit on top
Something like as Seda Revenge or Kaskazi or Hop on Top
This has been on CL for a while and it is well worth the drive http://reno.craigslist.org/spo/2459144198.html
The Revenge isa sit on top version of this
Different sizes …
… for different people. A 6’6" male with a superman upper body would not use the same boat as a 5’1 average build female.
That is why many boats come in different sizes. How the boat is used is also a factor.
I’m 5’8" and 165 pounds. Day tripper, not camping, so the load is just me. I found a T 170 OK, but the T165 better. If I was going to be carrying a lot of gear, I would have stayed with the 170.
And add to that personal preferences. I liked the feel of the 165 better because was more responsive, given my size and weight. Meaning it edged easier, again for me. Translation to that could be a more tippy feel to a newbie.
The only boat I’ve heard described as having no primary or secondary is a Nordkapp. I have one, an LV, and I don’t buy that description. It has both, but the transition is so smooth you have to have a feel for it. In other words, most boats push back as you approach the transition. Like clicks on a dial. The Nordkapp has no clicks.
The T was designed to have good primary and secondary stability, but you have to be in the one that fits you. That means the primary is not as stable as many of the beginner boats being recommended to you. But the trade off is those same boats have less secondary. The T will be more stable edged, where as the all primary boat will not. In waves and texture, you be looking for that secondary.
If your intent is to use the boat as a platform for something like photography, sight seeing, relaxation, fishing, etc, where you don’t want to think about balance, get a wide rec boat with high primary. If you want to play in rocks and waves, you need more maneuverability; translation more secondary, which comes at the price of some primary.
For a beginner, any boat that you feel perfectly stable in the first day is likely to become boring as you get even a few hours seat time. Many of the beginner boat suggestions given to you fit this category.
The T and the Z are very good beginner boats for someone who has a decent innate sense of balance, and wants to learn this as a sport. They can be had a good price, and can take you as far as you want to go and then some. If you stick with it, over time you’ll learn what things you want more in a boat and trade up as desired.
If you want to spend more money, other good beginner boats of this type, true sea kayaks, are the Avocet or Aquanaut, depending on your size, the Romney or Explorer, again size based, Capella or Cetus\Scorpio. These are all brit boats, the very best money can buy. But the T is an excellent copy of the performance characteristics of the Explorer, at a much less cost.
There are a myriad of other boats out there beyond the above, some mentioned to you, that have more unique characteristics and refinements. Bang around in a T for a few years and you’ll discover what characteristics you may want, and demo’ing those boats will be loads of fun.
P&H and Easky now on my radar…
Thanks for the heads-up. I keep hearing good things about P&H/Venture, so they are definitely on my radar for boats to try out.
One intriguing minor detail about P&H/Venture… the day hatch is IN FRONT on some of their boats. Brilliant! =]
Zephyr vs Fathom?
I thought I was sold on a zephyr but didn’t like the seating system. (to be fair, the one in the rental/demo may have been defective). I kept looking, and found an Eddyline Fathom LV - loving it and looking for a used one! I’m smallframed, BUT the regular Fathom (not lv) might be a good fit for you. It’s a pretty narrow boat but I felt confident quickly - I think it’s all about fit. There’s also the Eddyline Journey w a bigger cockpit and slightly wider. If these are avail for u to demo, they’re worth your time! Have fun!
Some suggestions…
– Last Updated: Jul-25-11 11:37 PM EST –
I still recommend a P&H Scorpio. The best combo of beginner-friendly and advanced-friendly I've seen. Feels very stable to me (I'm about 210lbs) but highly-skilled paddlers love it too.
Here's a few other Brands to look at:
Seaward
Delta
Atlantis
Current Designs
All are high quality and make models with strong stability. There are so many models which may work for you, but as you've figured out perception of stability is personal, so I suggest finding a retailer that carries some of these lines, then demo a few.
2nd the fathom
Very comfortable in the seat and in the water.
Scorpio, eh?
I must admit, the Scorpio is a boat that keeps coming up in my research. Lots of raves.
I will definitely get around to trying one WM… thanks much for the rec.
it felt like a tank to me
Aquanaut vs. tempest
– Last Updated: Jul-26-11 9:33 PM EST –
I have owned several tempests ... 170 plastic, then glass, then a glass 165. I'm around 5'8" and 160 - 165 pounds, give or take. I had actually dropped to between 158 - 160 when I had the 165.
When I got back in last fall, I didn't want to just get what I knew. And the T's leaked ... the 165 was just not a well made boat (particularly bad year for Wildy QC). I had always admired Valley boats at a local shop. The aquanaut LV was what I had my sights on, that or an Avocet.
For me, the Avocet felt like I was at the far end of the weight range. I know many folks put more weight in that boat, so that's a personal feel, and why you need to try these things on. The boat also felt slow, but so did the T 165 vs the 170.
The Aquanaut felt like a T 170. Just a very well built one. But more volume than I wanted. The LV was OK, but felt a little slow. Still, it would have been my choice over the Avocet.
For your size and weight, the regular size aquanaut seems be where to start. If it fits well, it should perform like the T 170. The T is a copy of the Explorer, and the Aquanaut is also modeled with the Explorer in mind.
As for build, Valley's are the Mercedes or BMW's of Kayaks. Same goes for P&H. Wildy is like a Chevy. The T will perform as well as an Aquanaut, and is the real deal as far as the design. Many of the boats being suggested to you cannot claim that, and are like the Camaro's that came out in the 1980's that looked like a sports car, but were basically a Celebrity.
my thoughts also re: the aquanaut
Certainly didn’t feel snug to me either.
just.get into some boats
You are way overthinking the stability thing. A kayak is hardly ever sitting at its initial stability point in waves anyway. Butt time in boats will help clear.this.up for you. Worth the bucks to go out on tours and rent boats if it helps sort this out.
Cool, thanks!
Thanks nebeginner, very useful into. Much appreciated! =]
???
See my next post below re:Necky Looksha. Rents/tours already under way.
flaky coverage
Saw next after l posted, on limited access.