I have been SINK exclusive kayak paddler for a long time, at they fit for the varied activities and types of water I find myself playing in. My “go to” boats that get the most use are my WS Zephyr 155 and Valley Avocet.
I have recently been paddling in some low volume rivers that have a lot of areas that invite you to hop out and explore caves and cliffs near the riverside. I am getting a little older and my “hop out” ability is not what it once was. This got me thinking about some canoes that I have been in over the years, mostly barge like craft with none of the playful nature of my current fleet of kayaks. I am not a fan of SOT kayaks as I paddle year round and would like a dry ride, and most are heavier than my self imposed 50 lb boat limit.
I looked at some of the Placid Boatworks canoes and was intrigued by the weight, but the short wide nature of them reminded me of rec style kayak dimensions that may limit the types of water that could be safely traveled upon.
I am looking for some input on what style of canoe that would be most kayak like in nature; maneuverable and with some decent speed and glide. Primarily a day use boat. I am 6’ tall and 200 lbs.
I think the first thing to address is what seems to be a basic misconception about what’s “short and wide” (and therefore sluggish?) when it comes to canoes. I went to the Placid Boatworks site and the first boat I clicked on was the Rapidfire, which as it turns out is 15 feet long and 27.5 inches wide. If those dimensions remind you of pokey rec kayaks, check out this clip of me paddling a canoe that’s almost exactly same length and width. This is going upstream against a brisk current on a river that’s nearly up to flood stage, and if you watch the tree branches go by, you can see that progress up the river is anything but slow, in spite of going against the current and also not being in a terrible hurry:
I think you should go to YouTube and find some videos of Marc Ornstien doing freestyle paddling. I think I heard that he sometimes paddles canoes by Placid Boatworks, but I could be wrong. In any case, you can watch him illustrate the “playful nature” of boats that aren’t any narrower (for a particular length) than the offerings of Placid Boatworks.
Now, Marc Ornstien performs miracles with a canoe and single-blade paddle, but here’s what a mere mortal like myself does quite easily with a canoe that’s 14 feet long and 30.5 inches wide, and I’m not even all that good as a paddler.
Before people start recommending boats, I hope this info puts your thoughts at ease when it comes to ease of travel and nimbleness of typical solo canoes. If you are worried about what kinds of water “can be safely traveled” in a canoe, that has nothing to do with rec-kayak-like dimensions that you mentioned and everything to do with being open, but you said you’ll be using this boat on small rivers, so I’m not sure how that even applies.
You are right about “hop-out ability”. I paddle some with our local club, which is 99-percent kayakers (it’s rare to see another canoe on these trips). At “difficult” launch or landing spots which don’t have a sloping beach, the kayakers have to help each other out and they take forever getting each boat into or out of the water. With a canoe, I just go find a spot that’s much more “difficult” (and therefore accessible without waiting in line for my turn), slide the boat down the bank (which could be several feet high and very steep) and keep ahold of the painter, guide the boat over to a location having a tree root or two, then climb down and hop in.
Last year I was looking at canoes as an option to replace my 13 ft. 60 pound Necky Vector SOT. I started a thread to get info on pack canoes like the Placid Rapidfire. You may benefit from some of the advice I got. After a lot of reading, input from p.net folks, and from Charlie Wilson, and from Placid/Swift/Hornbeck/etc. I was about ready to pull the trigger on a Swift Keewaydin 14 Pack canoe. I paddled a friend’s canoe again, and did more thinking. I ended up back at a SOT as my best choice and got an Eddyline Caribbean 14. It’s 14 foot and weighs 50. Here’s the thread.
https://forums.paddling.com/discussion/comment/1915622/#Comment_1915622
Are you planning to paddle this with a single-bladed paddle or double-bladed paddle? The Placid Rapidfire is generally regarded to be a fast canoe and can be set up to paddle with a single blade or double blade. Some other fast canoes are the Wenonah Advantage, the Colden Dragonfly or Colden Nomad, and the Savage River Blackwater.
definitely a little easier getting out of a c1 or canoe in rough terrain since you can step in or out rather than sliding in or out from behind the cockpit. But a canoe can be difficult to drag out of the eddy, over boulders, or up a steep bank. There are some other trade offs, Kayakers are more likely than canoeists to seal launch (nobody wants to seal launch glass, kevlar or royalex) , so entry can actually be easier for kayaks, and as far as actually ducking under strainers I give the nod to kayaks, though either one can be a bear to drag over and under a lot timber. A smaller light plastic boat is more desirable for that situation.
Canoes are great, I’ve just never bought into the whole argument about its so much easier. A bit easier to get in and out (assuming you can still feel the lower half of your body after kneeling for an extended period of time) in some conditions, like where there is a dock or bank that you have to drop down from, but just like there are tippy kayaks there are also tippy canoes, and either can be a little tricky to get in and out of. You need some initial stability to make things easier and that probably sacrifices some of the speed and glide your looking for. Either style of boat can be made heavy or light depending upon its intended use. Cockpit sizes vary greatly with kayak design and usage.
Don’t get me wrong, I like canoes, and I have paddled far more on my knees than on my butt, I switched to a kayak as I got older to make things easier and kayaking has put less stress on my body. From the loading, to unloading, carrying, dragging, and even the paddling. for me the kayak has been “easier”, but not necessarily “better”. When I can’t climb into or out of a kayak anymore I’ll just tumble in and out of a small inflatable ducky. The next step in my regression.
Canoes are fun that’s the reason to buy one and I doubt anbody on pnet (I guess its actually paddling.com now) is actually gonna tell ya to get a “rec boat”.
Ok, I’ll do it. A WS Pungo is somewhere between a kayak and a canoe. The 140 is a quick boat that can carry a bunch of gear and be fairly maneuverable. It is my river/swamp boat.
I owned a Rapidfire which was also a fast, maneuverable boat.
Neither will ever match the speed of a sea kayak, but in close quarters they are great.
@Raftergirl said:
… I paddled a friend’s canoe again, and did more thinking. …
- Try 'em and see how it works for you.
- Nobody said you were limited to only one boat. (unless perhaps you’re married)
I paddle both a kayak(36lbs) and an ultralight canoe(20lbs). I split my time between the boats depending on where I’m going. The canoe is essentially an undecked kayak with easy entree/exit for those older bodies. I don’t sacrifice speed or maneuverability with the canoe but it will catch some wind if your exposed.
Primary stability is not an issue with me, my favorite kayaks are considered by many as “tippy” kayaks. I was really taken aback when I watched the Placid Boatworks videos showing upstream paddling. I paddle alone quite a bit and often do 2 way trips on rivers; that is why my “fleet” are relatively short (between 14’ to 16’) and all under 24" wide, so I do not have what most would consider fast kayaks, just more efficient than a rec style boat.
I will be using my kayak paddles, I am probably considered a high angle paddler.
Are canoes easily edgeable, and does the rocker effect the ability to edge?
@Overstreet said:
@Raftergirl said:
… I paddled a friend’s canoe again, and did more thinking. …
- Try 'em and see how it works for you.
- Nobody said you were limited to only one boat. (unless perhaps you’re married)
I kept my Necky Vector as a loaner or to use on rocky rivers. I also have a 14 ft. whitewater raft, and a 10 ft. mini-cataraft in my fleet. If a Swift or PBW pack canoe was up for sale somewhere reasonably close to me, I’d be sorely tempted to add another boat to the collection. 
@trvlrerik said:
Primary stability is not an issue with me, my favorite kayaks are considered by many as “tippy” kayaks. I was really taken aback when I watched the Placid Boatworks videos showing upstream paddling. I paddle alone quite a bit and often do 2 way trips on rivers; that is why my “fleet” are relatively short (between 14’ to 16’) and all under 24" wide, so I do not have what most would consider fast kayaks, just more efficient than a rec style boat.
I will be using my kayak paddles, I am probably considered a high angle paddler.
Are canoes easily edgeable, and does the rocker effect the ability to edge?
Both the Placid Boat Work’s Rapidfire and Spitfire edge very nicely.
Placid canoes have a good rep, but I was demoing Swift canoes and fell in love with the Keewaydin 15 solo. It gets on edge quite well and is plenty fast. I was torn between a pack model and a regular seat. The owner of the place said “why not both?” So I bought a boat with the traditional seat and ordered a pack seat from Swift which I secure with industrial strength Velcro.
Depending on my moods and the type of paddling I’m doing I will go with the pack seat or the regular one. For fishing and camping I prefer the regular seat because it puts me up higher and leaves more room in the boat for gear. If I’m just going for a leisurely paddle or out with my kayaking friends, I drop in the pack seat. It takes about 5 minutes to switch them. Foot braces are easlly glued in place if you get the traditional seat (they will come already installed with the pack).
The Kee is a great boat and worthy of your consideration. Since you are quite a bit lighter than me, perhaps the Swift Osprey would be a good choice.
I do find that I get out and in far more easily than my kayaking friends can get in and out of their boats.
@trvlrerik said:
Primary stability is not an issue with me, my favorite kayaks are considered by many as “tippy” kayaks. I was really taken aback when I watched the Placid Boatworks videos showing upstream paddling. I paddle alone quite a bit and often do 2 way trips on rivers; that is why my “fleet” are relatively short (between 14’ to 16’) and all under 24" wide, so I do not have what most would consider fast kayaks, just more efficient than a rec style boat.
I will be using my kayak paddles, I am probably considered a high angle paddler.
Are canoes easily edgeable, and does the rocker effect the ability to edge?
Which video did you watch, and why were you taken aback?
Sure canoes can be edged. No, rocker does not affect the ability to edge a canoe.
If you want to paddle with a double bladed paddle, you will want a canoe with a relatively low sheer line, a low seat, and a foot brace or foot braces. There are some fundamental differences between kayaks and canoes that influence stability. Your center of gravity will be higher in a canoe. The Placid Rapidfire, for example, can be outfit with a very low seat less than 2" high, you will still be higher than you are in a kayak. What’s more, there is no deck to brace your knees under. Some open boaters will fit foam knee bumpers to the sides of the hull just below the gunwales to make it easier and more comfortable to brace your knees against the sides, but you still won’t have the same ability to lock into the boat.
So if you are comfortable in a kayak with a 23" waterline beam, do not expect to have the same degree of comfort with a canoe that narrow.
@trvlrerik said:
Are canoes easily edgeable, and does the rocker effect the ability to edge?
Some canoes “edge” quite well, and yes, rocker has an effect on that. I’m told, and it makes sense, that a canoe with lots of rocker will naturally carve a turn in the same direction as the lean because the rockered bottom becomes the outer edge of the hull in that situation. You probably won’t be buying a boat that has that much rocker. With most boats, the tendency is to carve a turn in the opposite direction of the lean, since the boat tends to follow the curve of the hull on the side which is sunk more deeply in the water, while the effect of the less-curved bottom (which is now the “side” of the boat on the inside of the turn) has a more neutral effect.
I don’t do much carving of turns because I can turn sharper and more easily and efficiently just with paddle manipulation, though I might lean the boat a bit just to aid the process. Also, with many canoes, there are lots of situations where if you heel it over, you might just as well instantly point it in the direction you wish to go instead wasting time and space carving a turn. Just as often, side-slipping makes much more sense than any kind of turn. On small rivers, especially with obstacles around, options which are completely unrelated to “steering” provide great freedom.
Which video did you watch, and why were you taken aback?
I watched all of the Placid Boatworks videos on their web site, It has been a long time since I have spent time in a canoe; I was raised in big lumbering Grumman canoes on family trips, and still play around in aircraft carrier Alumicraft canoes at family reunions.
I have been brainwashed since I could walk that canoes are big ungainly barges; only carriers of multiple people and two weeks of camping supplies.
My family (at my house) has been brainwashed that everybody has to pack and carry the stuff they want, limited by what they can get through their hatch covers. When I announced I was thinking about getting a canoe my wifes’ only concern was that she was not helping me portage a heavy boat. So a canoe purchase is a pretty big paradigm shift for me.
The more research I do, the more questions I come up with. I may have to spend a season trying out boats to see what I need to be in.
Pack canoes have become pretty popular in my area - the most popular is probably the Swift Pack 12
Several people have those. I’d say the next most popular is the RapidFire
And then maybe the Keewaydin 14
Nice boats. The longer ones move pretty well. It’s definitely easier to get gear in and out of them for camping.
You mentioned not liking SOT kayaks because of the open design in cold weather & wet ride. A canoe won’t be much different as far as weather, but it would be drier. I paddle SOT kayaks & don’t get very wet. In my Necky SOT I use the scupper valves that allow water to exit but not enter, and my Eddyline seat is slightly elevated so it stays dry. The reason I chose to stay with a SOT is paddling in wind, and I found a SOT easier to enter & exit with a bad knee. But I couldn’t really test paddle a pack canoe because they aren’t popular/available here in Utah. I could only go by the Wenonah Vagabond that a friend has for comparison. The pack canoe would have been a lot of $$$$ to buy & ship, so since I liked the SOT I stuck with it.
Read the Rapid Fire specs a lot better than you did… The max width is 27.5 inches. That is just below the gunwales. It has shouldered tumblehome. The WATERLINE width is what counts… Its 24. In the league of many sea kayaks.
There was a kayak group that hesitantly included me cause my RapidFire was a canoe and canoes are barges correct… They held to that conviction. They worried and told me that I would not keep up… Over 11 miles I beat them handily…the second boat was behind me by 500 feet .
I have a low seat for double blading and PBW makes a drop in medium and high seat for single blading… I use the high seat for single blading
RF is still a utility boat If you want a screamer of a canoe the Savage RIver offerings are from racing designs and the Placid Shadow has beaten every other boat for some years now in the Adirondack 90 miler.
If you are cold, there are spray covers for the RF… I dont use mine that often but it works.
I have several lightweight solo canoes… Lightweight meaning under 38 lbs.
The RapidFire is 23… People here in Florida keep thinking canoe is heavy beast… And being nice they try to help with one end… One guy had prepared for a heavy lift and when he lifted the stern five feet up he fell over backwards… too much effort for 11.5 lbs.
We are off to paddle the twists and turns of the Turner River. RapidFire has been on many an Everglades excursion from mangrove tunnels to the open Gulf… With an insane water load for ten days sometimes. Because of that shouldered tumblehome,if you heel the boat to the break it is very maneuverable. I constantly because of a FreeStyle background work the whole hull to carve turns… Heeling and edging are the same thing and not exclusive to kayaks.
@trvlrerik said:
Which video did you watch, and why were you taken aback?
I watched all of the Placid Boatworks videos on their web site, It has been a long time since I have spent time in a canoe; I was raised in big lumbering Grumman canoes on family trips, and still play around in aircraft carrier Alumicraft canoes at family reunions.
I have been brainwashed since I could walk that canoes are big ungainly barges; only carriers of multiple people and two weeks of camping supplies.
My family (at my house) has been brainwashed that everybody has to pack and carry the stuff they want, limited by what they can get through their hatch covers. When I announced I was thinking about getting a canoe my wifes’ only concern was that she was not helping me portage a heavy boat. So a canoe purchase is a pretty big paradigm shift for me.
The more research I do, the more questions I come up with. I may have to spend a season trying out boats to see what I need to be in.
There was a time when nearly all canoes were relatively large tandems designed to haul a lot of gear not very quickly. Then guys like Gene Jensen and Dave Kruger started designing sleek solo racing canoes. These were fast, but not terribly user-friendly for tripping or general recreational paddling. So around the mid 1980s, guys like Bob Brown, Dave Curtis and David Yost started designing solo boats for more general use. Today there are a slew of efficient solo canoes, although not all are in current production. So you may have more options than you would like.
When it comes to moving a hull efficiently through the water with any given load, what matters is the water footprint and that need not be very different between a kayak and a canoe. For stability reasons, canoes will often be at least a little wider. They will have much more freeboard and will therefore be more prone to be adversely affected by wind. Since the sheerline will be considerably higher than the deck of a kayak, you will probably need a somewhat longer and heavier double-bladed paddle to move them.
An alternative to using a double-bladed paddle is to use a lightweight, bent shaft, single-bladed paddle and paddle sit and switch. The paddle will be much lighter and you won’t have to lift as much weight. Due to the recovery phase and the need to switch, your stroke cadence will probably be a bit less but the trade-off might be worth it.
I have owned a Placid RapidFire for ten years, using it almost exclusively as a solo canoe (kneeling on a high, bench seat, paddling with a single blade). At the bench-seat height, 27.5 inches of boat width doesn’t feel excessively stable! It’s a bit twitchy, in fact. It’s the height of one’s center of gravity that counts. If you find a canoe that almost works for you but feels a little dull, try padding the seat up a couple of inches with a phone book or scrap foam. If that improves the feel, you can do a proper job later. When I use one of Placid’s standard mount-on-floor seats, even the highest one, paddling with a double blade, the boat feels a little dull – to me. But I am an extremist whose go-to kayak is 20.5 inches wide. Many people like the width of a pack canoe; a good design helps a lot.
With most canoes paddled as kayaks, you’ll want a very long paddle. 230 cm is a common choice, and some people paddle tandem canoes with a 240 cm kayak paddle!
One option for you is to stick with kayaking but find better ways to get in and out. Some things I’ve tried: Using a boat with a high front deck, so that I can grab the front point of the cockpit rim with one hand and really haul myself up. Using a very short, very cheap canoe paddle as a walking stick, to steady yourself and provide leverage; it doubles as a barely-adequate spare paddle. Deciding in advance that, every time I exit the boat, I’m going to flood the cockpit, then deal with the water in the boat as a separate step. This makes it easy to get out, because I can just swing my legs out the side of the cockpit and stand up, no need for arm strength.
Good luck with trying your various options!
Mark