LiquidLogic Remix

thinking about possibly getting a crossover kayak. I had an opportunity to pick an xp9 last week, but passed it up. Since then I have read some good reviews. Anyone here used one?

there has been a fair amount

– Last Updated: Jul-06-12 5:55 PM EST –

of discussion here on the xp9 and xp10. I don't mean to be unfriendly, but there is a lot of useful info for you if you search here on those terms.
I have an XP10 and like it for moving water. I would not use it on a lake (well, unless it was my only boat). I like that it can turn 360 degrees with one good stroke. I used to use my Necky Manitou 14 (touring kayak) on such moving water -- let's say class I and II -- I like the xp10 better for that. The Manitou is more versatile though (I would not want the xp10 to be my only boat -- even though it is called a crossover.)
What is your intended use?

more info
here’s a much cited blog comparing the XP10 w. the Pyranha Fusion:

I demo’d both the XP9 and the FusionS (the Fusion w the Connect 30 outfitting - no pegs, a bulkhead instead, and a more ww oriented seat and seatband. There is another package called the RiverTour.

I liked the FusionS better and bought one. Almost 2 years later it’s still my most loved river boat.

It really comes down as to which fits you better and which outfitting version you prefer. The XP series is generally found to be a little bit bigger/wider than the corresponding Fusions. The “Bad Ass” outfitting in the XPs is very comfy, almost “squishy” to me… but many ppl really like it.

I also really like the removable 1 liter pod that was designed to ride on the Fusion’s front deck. For some that may be of no value.

The skeg placement in the XP is easier to reach and operate than in the Fusion. Neither is as easy as a seakayak, but neither is a nightmare.

Buy either one w. confidence - both great, innovative designs from two great companies. Add the Dagger Axis to the mix and the one from Jackson if you have the chance to try them.

The Jackson?
Raven what’s the Jackson kayak called? Is it the Rogue?

Not to hijack the thread, but I’ve been looking at crossovers too. Although my main target is the Axis right now. However, I want to try the other crossovers too.

I’m demoing some yaks tomorrow. Pretty pumped about it.

I have paddled a lot of crossovers
and I have not found one that was a good flat water boat. If a boat has halfway decent manners in moving water, those hull characteristics make it terrible as a flatwater boat.

It depends on what you are going to do with the boat I guess. In my situation I am on lakes 75% of the time so after trying out a lot of boats I went with a LL Inuit 12.5, In my situation it is a good crossover boat even though it is not listed as a crossover. I can run class 2 or 3 if I want to, or go out on flat water.

My advise is to get in a boat you can control very well and take it out and have fun. As you learn what kind of paddler you are you can refocus your boat selection.

crossover kayaks
thanks for the advice

the majority of my kayaking is on flatwater. However, I want to have the option for paddling class 2/3 rivers.

You are correct. These kayaks are
really designed to be serious load carriers while also retaining serious whitewater capability. They are a little better than whitewater “river runner” kayaks on smooth water, but have rather limited glide.

What can you expect from a 10 foot kayak? Old school ww kayaks like the Dagger Animas or Perception Pirouette will both out-handle and outrun an XP10, in spite of the latter’s up-to-date design. I have an old Noah Magma, 12’ 6" long, that will run the legs off the lot, but it’s still slower than my 14’ 6" Necky Looksha Sport, and doesn’t have the nice hatches for storage.

But there are a few people who only have the money, or the space, for a single kayak, and want something that is good on whitewater and acceptable on flatwater. For that need, the new “crossover” kayaks are acceptable.

Many people would be better off to buy a used touring kayak, and a used whitewater kayak.

yeah, the Jackson Rogue
is what it’s called. A crossover that replaced the earlier All Water. Haven’t tried it.

the Dagger Axis is the 4th entry in the crossover category. Let us know what you think!

no such thing as a crossover kayak

– Last Updated: Jul-07-12 9:27 AM EST –

the likes of the LL XP9/10, Pyranha Fusion, Jackson Rogue, Dagger Approach, Prijon Combi, etc. are river runners with (sometimes) dry storage. plain and simple. get one if you like whitewater with the option of bringing along some camping gear. others like the Dagger Axis, Perception Swiftwater are more on the rec-boat end of the spectrum. everything's a compromise and none of these will be particularly impressive on flatwater, alot of them tend to plow at top speed... there are plenty other 12-15' boats that will do better for all-purpose use and can still run easy whitewater. but if you paddle alot in both environments, you'll eventually want two boats dedicated for different purposes.

if they made the Axis a little bit narrower and put a true ww-style cockpit/outfitting on it, I would consider one for river trips, but I still wouldn't choose it as a primary flatwater boat. right now I've got my eye out for a good deal on a used Fusion.

Like what?
What do you suggest for a 50/50 mix of flatwater and whitewater kayaking then?

You say there are better options out there, however you don’t mention any. So what are they?

You’d have to specify how serious
the whitewater you propose to run, and how open, windy, wavy, and far from land the flatwater. What we’re saying is that none of the available boats is a true crossover, in that you won’t be happy with any of them if you are both a serious ww paddler and a serious open water kayaker.

If you’re content with a rather slow, mediocre handling flatwater kayak, several “crossover” kayaks on the market are OK. Some of them are decent river runners, especially if you want to carry gear, but even without gear, they aren’t going to satisfy as creekers, playboats, or snappy river runners.

As I said earlier, if you must have only one kayak to run both whitewater and flatwater, “crossover” boats can cross over—sort of. But there isn’t anything about a one-kayak solution that really is a solution.

50/50 = two boats
my meaning was that there are plenty of longer, general-purpose flatwater kayaks that can be run down some simple whitewater. just one example: Jackson Journey. if you’re serious about whitewater and technical stuff beyond some straightforward Class II… get a whitewater-oriented boat, but don’t expect to paddle it 50% flatwater. no “crossover” is going to shine in both environments, and most of them just plain suck when it comes to miles of flatwater or open lake/sea paddling.

Okay, so just got back from my demo. I will agree that the Dagger Axis is decent on flatwater, but that’s about it.

This is what I plan to do with the ONE kayak I can get, we live in an apartment so space is VERY limited. I want to be able to run lakes and rivers (not huge, not windy) and get into Class II and MAYBE some Class III stuff.

When I was demoing I tried out the Axis 12.0, Tsunami 120 and 125, Perception Carolina 12, and the Current Designs Kestrel 120.

Would the Tsunami 120 or Kestrel 120 do what I’m asking?

I’m pretty sure the Axis would, with the skeg down it was tracking great, with it up I could turn on a dime.

Later, you can get rid of your couch
and get a whitewater boat.

What is the Axis missing?
What whitewater outfitting would you want to see on the Axis besides thigh braces and hip pads?

Axis 12.0
I have the Axis 12 and have been very happy with it. I know it is not a speedy boat but has always been fast enough for me even on flat water. Overall, I am not taking it out on big water – the biggest flat water lake near me is a 1450 acre lake. This lake can get very windy (enough wind to support a marina for sail boats) and choppy in the center. The Axis has always done a good job handling the wind and chop there. Tracks well, stable, and good enough speed.

Mainly I enjoy taking it down rivers and small streams, which it has been a great handler – seems to handles class 1 and 2 well.

I have added the thigh pads and hip pads to the kayak, which I think it probably should have had by default.

Shady, where do you get the hip and thigh pads? From Dagger? Or somewhere else?


You can also find the braces on Amazon as well as good number of other kayaking stores.

Never saw anyone else selling the Harmony hip pads.

a few things
hip pads, real thigh hooks (I think the European Axis Elite has them), a full pillar up front, a ratcheting backband instead of a rec seatback, maybe also a movable footplate/bulkhead instead of footpegs. the cockpit needs to be a size smaller for better fitment of a whitewater skirt, and the keel/skeg would need to be redesigned because it extends too far back and is vulnerable to getting hung up on ledges or rocks.

the Approach is Dagger’s attempt at such a boat, but it’s unsuitable for flatwater and the cockpit on the 10’ size is far too loose for average-sized paddlers. Considering some of the self-supported river treks people are doing these days, I think there’s a market for a 10-12’ whitewater-capable kayak that can endure some flatwater (such as big reservoirs on rivers), which I don’t think anyone is making today.

I have been down class III with
several people in cross over kayaks (XP’s, Rogue, Dagger) and while they all made it down the river they clearly had a harder time than those in dedicated WW boats. You will probably do ok if your idea of WW kayaking is to bomb down the river. But if you expect to catch many eddies or do many ferries in swift class III water you will be disappointed.