Long whitewater boats for rock gardens a

What do think about boats like the Dagger Green boat and the new Liquid Logic Remix XP as ocean playboats. They seem like they would be ideal for this purpose as long as you don’t have to cover too many miles. I’m surprised I don’t hear too much talk about using these boats for this purpose. The Green boat is about 12 ft long and I think it was 24.5 inches wide. The Remix XP even has a retractable skeg and a rear hatch.

sounds ideal to me
but only in a way. for tight rock gardening, and playing very rough, wearing pads and full face gear, etc. i suspect, most people think of rock gardening as somewhat less aggressive and impactful than a style that would need a river boat. i’ve certainly thought about it. i find that a great local day trip with rock hopping in mind, is a 5-10 mile round trip, in and out of slots, coves, caves and reef structures, all the while covering distance and keeping momentum going. while a big river boat would do the tight stuff well, it wouldn’t be so great for the rest. i dunno, i wish i could try one of these boats for this purpose, but i’m not going to buy one for such a narrow application. on the river, i use a small playboat, so it wouldn’t even serve double duty for me. are you thinking of getting one of these kayaks for rock play? please do and tell us how it goes…

i’ve also considered a dedicated slalom kayak for this purpose.

Not a bad idea, I see folks around here
doing that, even in Necky Jives, Glisses and so forth. But, if you swim it will be harder to rescue and recover a boat with minimal buoyancy like a whitewater boat than a bulkheaded sea kayak. It can be done but it’s harder.


I saw a video
on youtube of someone using what looked to me a long old-style WW boat. Not a slim slalom boat with sharp edges but a rounded all around hull.

IMO he had very hard time surfing and keeping a straight line where he needed it, constantly broaching etc.

The skegged Remix may be better and it also a wider and more stable boat. But I think it will be relatively slow at 10’ by 28". Having never done rock gardens (not sure I intend to either) I do not know what’s important there in a boat. For just exploring, I think it will do well. For where you need to be quick up to speed and keep direction, not so sure…

I don’t do the rough stuff you mentioned, but I would like the manueverability in tight spots. I think they would be more fun in the surf than a seakayak also.

I live in sacramento very close to the lower American River which is a pretty flat long river with really just one fun play spot called San Juan rapids. You do a lot of flat river paddling before and after that spot, but it’s fun to play in the rapids there.

The Northern Calif coast has lots of places where you pretty much can launch right into the rock garden areas, so you don’t have to paddle real far.

Mendocino for example. I go there one or two times a year.

I have a WW play boat that I bought for roll practice in my pool that I have really grown attached to and I miss the easy rolling, quick turning, etc when I get back in my 17 ft sea kayak. The play boat actually works fine for the Lower American, but It’s almost impossible to even carry extra water and lunch in it.

It would be useless in the ocean because it would get pushed around too easily by the waves etc.

I’m thinking about taking a gamble and just ordering one of the boats I mentioned, since the Remix XP isn’t out yet and no one has the Grreen boat available for demo that I know of.

I’m leaning toward the Remix XP. It’s kind of wide at 28", but I think it would handle better that the Green boat in all conditions. Plus it has the skeg. One nice thing about these is that they are cheap so you aren’t risking too much.

It would be nice to get some general opinions from the boat design experts out there.

Green boat might be fun, but
I’ll bet one of these would surf better:


Yeah but
My roll has become pretty reliable on both sides now and I figure if I can’t roll, it will be because I’m in too shallow water, in which case I’ll be able to stand up and dump it.

I have been using a sit on top for this stuff and it works quite well, but I miss the ability to edge properly and to roll.

My Capella is fine for everything else I do off shore.

Not only a worthy concept
but the future of rock gardening and ocean play. Shorter, more fun, performance boats!

Many of my friends I use them for that

I have a Seda Crest that is an 11’ creek boat. I only use it for places where I don’t have to paddle far because it’s a bear to keep straight. It also is a very nice surf boat. Both Necky and Perception also have some good boats that people are using out here.

If I have to paddle far to reach the play area, I’ll either tow the Seda, or use my Capella RM.

Very Nice
I knew the choices would become more complicated if I posted this. Converting from centimeters that’s 11.5 ft long by about 25 inches wide. It sounds like it is designed for just what I’m looking for. Really a sweet looking boat. It’s just such an unfamiliar concept to me. I can’t even guess how it would handle without trying it. It looks like a surf kayak to me. I love the hatch, sealed bukhead, sleek lines, and it looks like it even has a sealed area in front of the feet. Not much volume. It looks like it would be better in the surf than in other conditions. Made in England. Wow, that would be a real leap of faith to just order it and hope for the best.

Mine is pretty reliable too, and it
wouldn’t bother me to rock paddle with a ww boat, either. But if someone else’s roll is dodgy it may not be the best choice.


Try to raise up Corgimas. He has a
Rockhopper and I’ve seen him post reviews of it. Might even have a review in that section.


found review
Yes there is an excellent review under Tek Sport in the product review. Sounds like he loves it. Most of his comments relate to surfing with it. I think that’s what he uses it for.

Same idea
Looks like you had the same thing in mind when you bought the Seda.

It looks like it might have a flat bottom front to back or is the bottom rounded at the front?

How does it do in surge and overflows. Does it spin around and broach or can you control direction pretty well?

You have floatation bags, no?
You should have them in front of the front foot bulkhead as well as in the stern. If that isn’t enough, then extra minicell can be stuck to the sides with contact cement, in areas that don’t threaten a wet exit.

Maybe Salty and others
who understand how good short boats are designed could list a few of the boats that would fit the criteria for “performance ocean and rock garden kayaks” I had a Mariner Coaster but don’t Know of other boats that might be Coaster-like in their performance. John

2 words
Dagger Alchemy.

2 more



Why not!

– Last Updated: Sep-05-08 10:08 PM EST –

I been eyeballing both those boats
for my next purchase as a versatile
big ww all-arounder, and also had the
thought how great either would be on
the occasions I managed to amble out of
the mountains to blast some ocean surf.
I can only argue from a mostly ww sensibility
(as opposed to those who are more seayakers)
but I think they'd play great among the briney
rocks too.

Now we are talkin
14 footer! Wow, all the whitewater boat manufacturers are coming out with longer boats. This is so over due. I can’t tell you how excited I am about this.

Flatpick–You’ve got to use your influence to convince them to put good hatches on this thing. This is going to be too good a boat not to have good hatch covers.