Looking for local black bear knowledge/advice

Wilderness Tripping
#81

@szihn Well said, and I agree entirely. Here in New Hampshire, I find the .357 Mag to be perfect for my needs. I have a Glock 20, but I am far more accurate with my S&W 627 Performance Center revolver. It’s big and heavy, but that weight really mitigates recoil with heavy loads from Underwood, and it holds 8 rounds of it.

Lots of people scoff at the .357 magnum. They forget that from 1935 to 1955, it was the most powerful handgun cartridge on the planet, and it was used successfully to take every large game animal on every continent. With the right load and competent marksmanship, it will certainly do the job.

#82

I don’t have any plans to venture into grizzly country, but I do camp in places where black bears are making a comeback. So far I have not heard of any predatory black bear attacks of humans in these locales, but that could change over time.

I do own a double action 357 Magnum revolver (Ruger GP100). What type of ammunition would you recommend if I became concerned enough about bears to take it along? The recommendation that I have most often heard is for hard cast projectiles.

#83

@pblanc Buffalo Bore Heavy .357 Mag Outdoorsman 180 grain LFN and Underwood 357 Mag 180GR. Flat Nose Gas Check Black Cherry Coated Hard Cast Hunting Ammo are great choices for black bear and pair well with the GP100.

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#84

Yes the very best are indeed hard cast with gas checks, but that is only 1/2 the answer.

Bullet shape (design) is very important. I am one of the former CEOs of Cast Performance Bullet Company and in my days as the head ballistician and later the CEO of that company I tested many hundreds of thousands of rounds with various bullets, ranging from our own cast bullet to every competitors bullet we could get (all of them I believe) from jackets hollow points, Jacketed soft points, swaged, various shapes and designs of cast, and also bonded and partitioned jacketed.

So to answer your question I must ask a question:
Do you load your own ammo?

If you do, getting some LBT style 180-187 grain Wide Flat-Nose Gas Checked bullets (or a mold to make them and die to install the gas checks) and loading them on a good charge of WW 296 or H110 is the best you can get.

If you don’t load your own, you can buy Buffalo Bore Brand and get the same kind of load commercially. VERY pricy, but they truly are excellent. https://www.buffalobore.com/index.php?l=product_list&c=162. They need to be zeroed however because the bullet weight and pressure curve of the rounds make the gun shoot to a different point of impact than it would with standard ammo.

Lacking either of those 2 options I can also say in the area of the jacketed rounds available, those loaded with the Hornady XTP bullets do very well also. Not as good, but still very good none the less.
The XTP hollow Points are designed to expand well and any expansion makes a larger wound then the same bullet would make with no expansion, but understand nothing you can do with a set amount of energy can increase it’s power (Mass X Velocity is the measure of energy) So if you have five 180 grain bullets going (for example) 1300 FPS, every one has the same amount of energy. But HOW that energy is transferred is something different bullets do in vastly different ways.
For large animals where the fur and/or hair is thick, often wet or dirty, and the muscles are large and powerful, and bones strong and thick, a rapid expansion is often a recipe to disaster. A lot of energy is put on target and the damage is great, but not deep enough to make a clean kill, and a wounded bear is the stuff of legend. Wounded bears are VERY dangerous not just to the shooter but to every one and every thing that bear comes into contact with later. If you shoot you MUST kill because if you don’t you make the problem a lot worse. The XTP Hornady bullets do an excellent job of giving a good diameter wound and still able to get clear through the animal. Many (if not most) H.P bullets will not. However a friend of mine just 2 weeks ago killed a cow elk with one of the 158 grain Hornady Hollow Point rounds fried from a rifle, and the bullet went clear through and exited the elk length wise. Distance of the shot was 168 yards.

In my tests on game and also in the lab the XTP was always a bit behind our LBT cast Gas-Checked bullets in overall performance, but not very much behind to be 100% honest. And that ammo is easy to get.

A hard cast Keith SWC is good, but the very best is the LBT style Wide Flat Nose. But they are not as easy to get in many places. Those that buy a mold and cast their own bullets and also load their own ammo have many options easily available to them that the shooter who only buys what he or she can find doesn’t have. Yes you can buy the same kind of ammo, but it’s not inexpensive.

A lot to read and consider here, but I hope I was helpful to you.

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#85

.300 Win Mag?

#86

Predatory behavior by black bears is predominately seen in areas where their territory overlaps with Grizzly territory. The Grizzly chase the black bears away from any food and cause them to become very hungry and thus dangerous to people. Extremely rare otherwise.

#87

I carry a .357 mag often in the Sierra. I was just out this week for 4 days, and the bears are in hyperphagia, putting on fat for winter. Black bears only, but once in awhile one comes in without knocking.

I carried a .44 mag only once in Alaska. After running into the coastal brownies that had tracks the size of dinner plates I just about wet my pants. They were huge even compared to the large grizz in the Rockies. After that I always carried a rifle. The new powerful pistol calibers, are easy to pack around. They are always on your person which is a great advantage. Sometimes while working the rifle could be resting against a tree.

#88

Nope, not a 300 mag, A Marlin M94 357 mag.
1 shot and the elk fell. She did get up and walk about 30 yards to fall once more, and never move again. 5 feet of penetration and an exit.
Now it’s important to understand the 18.5" barrel of the carbine gives about 400 FPS more velocity, but that is off-set by the range. At 168 yards the velocity would bleed down to about what you’d have at around 30 yards from a handgun. So the comparison is not in-valid.

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#89

Its wise to remember that timid creatures in “docile bear” country will become raging brutes, when people who feel sorry for them believe its humane to feed them or unwittingly makes food available. Once they learn that humans are a source of food and learn to expect it, the meek playful creaturr transforms and the relationship with humans changes forever.

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#90

My Sister lives in Soldotna and I have spent some time up on the Kenai Peninsula. Ppine is not kidding about the size of those bears. But the ones I saw around the cost of Alaska were not ever aggressive to me or my friends. I am told by the locals that it’s common for them to simply ignore you. They are BIG because of being well fed and not having a lot of trouble or competition finding a lot of food. Not that it makes them non-dangerous. People still get mauled by them on rare occasion, but mostly by pushing their luck with a mama bear with cubs. Beth tells me much the same about the black bears. They feel the pressure and so are more likely to press the issue of raiding cars and cabins for food and so can be more likely to attack then the big costal brown bears. But those that do attack are not usually fatal.

But getting mauled by a grizzly is a whole different matter.

Here in Wyoming and also much of Montana and some of Idaho, we have the mountain Grizzlies. Far smaller then Costal grizzlies. A BIG one here is 700 pounds. But a 350-400 pound mountain grizzly is a REAL dangerous critter . They are territorial and competitive. When my Sister Beth come here to visit she was amazed at the way the bears would stand their ground and not ignore us, or run from us.

They think they “own the place” ---- and I think they do to.

We DO NOT press our luck with Grizzlies.
Not ever!

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#91

Thanks for the tips. No, I don’t reload although I have considered doing so several times.

#92

Hi szihn,
My aunt and uncle moved to Homer in the 1960s. They lived at Kenai and then Sand Lake near Soldotna for decades before going outside and back to Washington when they decided to live on a boat. I had some relatives head for Mat-Su Valley in the 1930s.

I agree about the coastal browns. They are well fed and not that territorial. The black bears are more numerous and they were the ones that followed me around.

In Denali NP I saw 7 grizz in one day which where the Barren Grounds sub-species. The largest boar was maybe 700 pounds similar to the mountain grizz. The Wyo/Mt grizz tend to be very territorial. I have been around them many times, but have not interacted with them much. It is best to keep some distance.

Not that common to run into people except trappers and wildlife biologists as knowledgeable about bears as you are.

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#93

Knowledge is what people need. They need to know how bears think, what their habits are, and how to stay away from them. Weapons are only for emergencies when you screw up or are very unlucky. Knowledge is power.

People are safer with knowledge and no weapons, than they are without knowledge whether they have weapons or not.

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#94

I could not agree more. It’s like a seat belt. You do all you can to never need one. But wear it anyway ----because there is that percentage of times you have no say-so in the situation.

Situational awareness is key.
If there are bears in the area keep in in mind 100% of the time. And remember they are often active in the night when most humans are sleeping, so having some kind of early warning system is a good idea. (best is a good dog who barks when other animals come near). But even bells on a string is something that may be helpful. In elk camps in the back country there have been times when the guides and sub-guides take turn on watch, just like security details in the military.

I have dealt with Grizzlies for over 40 years. Black bears for about 55 years. I have had food raiding black bears to deal with probably 20 times and had to shoot one. In all my years of dealing with Grizzlies I have never personally had a bad problem with one, but I have been involved with 9 stock killers and 2 that attacked humans. The 2 that involved humans were #1 a man covered in blood who was carrying an elk quarter back to camp and was attacked in the camp itself and #2 a horse packer who was trying to sooth the horses in the night. The horses knew the bear was there, but the packer for whatever reason didn’t think of that. In both cases the hunters and outdoorsman were experienced. But sometimes that level of experience causes a person to relax too much. In both cases if they had remained alert and known they were possible being the hunted instead of being the hunter the situations may have been averted or at least lessened.
The packer had only minor injuries but one of the pack horses was killed.
The hunter carrying the meat was REALLY messed up and I didn’t believe he could survive. (He did, but is crippled up pretty badly. He’ll never be totally recovered from that mauling.)

I my time dealing with Grizzlies in Wyoming I have been able to sit and speak with many ranchers and stock men who have had livestock killed.

I have also spoken to several men and one woman who were attacked. In nearly all instances, if they had not let their guard down things would probably been different or at least there would have been a better chance.

Only 2 were situations where it was obvious the bear was pre-planning the attack. Those are the very worst, but also the most rare.

Like kayaking, going into the wilderness is something that involves an element of danger and risk. That’s just the nature of the activity. If someone can’t see fit to accept that fact they should stay in the middle of a city, where the dangers of injury or death is actually higher in my opinion, but hey…“at least it wasn’t a bear” !!! ??? !!!

(as if that would matter)

That’s life.
It’s ALWAYS dangerous sooner or later. No one gets out of that game alive. So learn what needs to be learned for the activity you engage in (private, professional or recreationally) and do the best you can.

Leave the rest up to God, and don’t let fear rule over you. Life is for living.

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#95

A life well lived involves some risk.
I like having a dog or two around as the early warning system. I had to fly to Alaska and never had my dog along. Dogs have chased bears out of camp several times.

#96

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IMG_20220622_0734129593600×8000 2.12 MB

This is Larry. He was walking away from the bear box out of camp when I decided to unzip the tent.

Why did I take a pic while i was walking backwards with my arms up talking low and loud? Um, stupid? But i made it to the outhouse …

A neighbor shouted at him and he went away.

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#97

The OP (if she still visits here) might be interested in this bear recently seen in our upper peninsula:

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#98
#99

When I was young, over 50 years ago I cooked dinner once in the dark without any light on. I turned on my flashlight to check the bean soup, and there was a black bear on his hind legs on the other side of the picnic table. I backed up and he pounced on dinner.

In Alberta, near Banff NP I awoke at first light around 430 to loud grunting and snorting. There was a black bear on the other side of the mosquito netting within 14 inches of my head. I whistled and she left. Half an hour later I woke up again to see one large nose and two little noses pressed against the netting. Then I got up.

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#100

Those are the kind of experienced I call “tight wire moments”.

It can go either way in a split second, and with a very small push.

I really like pepper spray for those exact type of incidents because if you can spay mama she usually learns to run from humans. If she is not taught to run she then teaches the cubs not to run. THAT’S the way we get dangerous bears. But teaching them instead of killing them is a MUCH better plan when possible. Sometimes it’s not possible, but most times it is.

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