I’ve done better than that. I paddled with Craig and his son and offered to drive two hours to demonstrate. His son could benefit, but I think it would be a step backward for Craig. He doesn’t need my advice.
You ask me not him .
I understand your stroke but I’m just going to have to drive efficiency into high angle ad it doesn’t require as much torso twist as you do low angle. My range of motion in being able to twist is limited by the back injury and vetribre fusions.
My stroke on the right is limited to much less than 45 degrees. to the left I have close to full 45 deg rotation.
So this may be my issue with learning the low angle my right exit is quite rough due to this.
1 Like
I agree after watching the efficiency of your high angle. My focus is more for your son. I hope he can adapt to both, so he can better manage both sprints and endurance.
Hope you had a chance to read my post. I deleted it when it generated irrelevant challenges that I have no time to engage.
yeah I did manage, I set the system to mail me wine someone replies to me, so i get a hard copy in my e-mail that I can read at my leisure.
1 Like
Apr 28, 2025 - Paddling Self-evaluation
I am back and getting faster. I am now in a Zegul Greenland GT sea kayak (17’10 / 21.4" beam). How is my rotation? I am dipping the paddle less into the water now. I still can’t keep up the scull rowing boats.
1 Like
That’s looking good. Real good.
1 Like
A friend who is a very strong paddler in a ski tried to keep up with a senior in a skull. Not a chance.
1 Like
Updated video
My kids are 8th graders that just started rowing in 2024. I was able to keep up with them then. But now only less than a year later, not a chance.
I saw the additional charts. Your speeds are great which shows you’re a strong paddler, especially hitting 9 mph max spikes. The best I cam do is around 7.3 to 8 mph, but you aren’t catching those rowing boats.
You don’t need any advice on speed, but you may be able to improve your efficiency. What are you doing during the segments underlined in red
Depending on how the sensitivity of your GPS or app is set, remember that when you stop, any movement will continue to register on the GPS and bring down your average. You may be going faster than you realize
I did a trip analysis. I included exact WIND, Current Speed/Direction, & Tides.
I think on this particular trip of 2 hours of almost 10 miles at 4.7mph, weather was not a big part in aiding or going against me. So I can only conclude I have exhausted myself even though I did not feel exhausted but clearly the data shows so. I did not take any breaks aside at the midpoint.
I would love to be more consistent so any tips here for what to do past a 4 mile marker for me to maintain my pace would be great.
And this morning run at slack tide, hardly any wind.
Port Jefferson Harbor out to the sound, then East to mt Sinai harbor and back. New personal record for a sustained 4.8mph over 2hrs:15mins. This time I did not have the zig zag speed in the return trip. I paid more attention to my strokes to avoid getting lazy because of tireness kicking in. Though I don’t feel tire at the end. Its not a racing pace but I am putting in a lot of efforts type pace to keep it moving.
1 Like
I’ve been known to race from time to time, now our races happen on what is called Lake Clarke, suffice it to say it’s not a lake it the lower part of the Susquehanna river. but for the most part it’s flat water maybe depending on which direction you are heading for the race, if heading to the Holtwood dam the first 5 miles will have a 3 mph current, but the next 5 it’s going to be about 1-1.5 mph.
So what I’d call flatwater (not like the true flat water I practice on.) but I digress.
looking at your speed charts and your paddling technique which looks to perhaps be a mid to high angle, but you’re handling it away form the boat somewhat like youd be low angle.
my advice would be to pick a style. When I’m screwing around I paddle mid, sort of like you are doing there I push about depending on conditions anywhere from 4.9-5.1 mph though my exit from the stroke is a bit cleaner so you may be able to pick up some speed here if you clean up that stroke.
When I go full on race day. I paddle high angle and there I run depending on conditions, between 5.2 and 6.1
So without further info regarding your paddle, length and blade area if you want to get faster clean up your form, and choose a style Low/Mid/High and stick to that. I’d also like to see your catch and where that’s occurring.
Your cadence is similar to mine, your exit stroke appears to be a bit shorter than mine it’s a bit hard to tell from the video what would be helpful is seeing it from side on to see the stroke length from the catch to the exit.
based on your raw numbers alone, unless there is recording discrepancies from the gps, you’re doing better than most dealing with waves and tides.
1 Like
Would a good analogy be to like an OC1 or dragon boat where they use a single blade paddle, and they’re jabbing it at 60° into the water. I had some practices on a dragon boat last year and was relating that to my kayak technique. I noticed too that I am often pushing waters away from the boat. So the idea is to keep the paddle stroke and water line parallel to the kayak?
PJRC Gold Medal Run at 2024 Dragon Boat Festival
I was on a dragon boat here and was taught a few things to stab the water with chest rotation
My paddle is a Werner Ikelos and its the biggest blade high angle kayak paddle Werner sells. I’ll try to get a better video shot but its hard because my kayak won’t mount to this textured skin kayak I have. I’ll get someone else to film me instead to see if that helps. I like to go 5mph consistently (and comfortably without huffing and puffing). Right now getting to 5mph sustained 2hr paddle is not easy.
I’m in a Zegul Greenland GT here with a hard chine. I have been told the hard chine creates a drag and the boat plays a big factor with my speed. So I wonder sometimes if I am on a Fast Sea Kayak (FSK) category boat, will my speed automatically raise up without changing my technique.
i have an Ikleos so I’m familiar with the blade area. what is the shaft length you are using with it.
for a true high angle stroke you want the catch to be about 1" or so off the hull and progress straight back to the exit. Just like the stroke you’d take in a canoe or an OC1so your assumption there is correct.
I’cant help you will all of your technique as I also run at a 60deg feather which is a hold over from my White Water days.
as for hard chine or no, most people might have both hard and soft chine from different manufacturers. So it winds up being an apples - Oranges comparison even within manufacturer lines the specs vary.
I’m lucky in this instance to have two Wilderness systems boats a Tempest 180 Pro and a Tsunami 175. (Also have now A tsunami 175 pro for a more apples to apples comparision.)
The Tempest is Soft Chine, the Tsunami is hard Chine. Other than that the only real difference between the boats is the length as the Tempest is 6" longer but both boats have the same beam, and draft. So the comparison between Hard and Soft Chines is probably more accurate than most.
So here’s the skinny…
Under Ideal Conditions - No wind, on Flat Water, no currents.
The tempest will hit a maximum speed of 6.2 mph average speed over a 3 mile course.
The Tsunami will hit a Maximum speed of 5.8 mph average speed over a 3 mile course.
However when we add in windblown waves with a 20 mph wind
The Tempest will Drop to a maximum average speed of about 5.6 Mph.
The Tsunami Will Drop to a maximum average speed of about 5.4 mph
Obviously as conditions get worse the speed will slow.
These are the speeds I’ve measured over several years.
Now let me say this neither boat seems to be affected head on into the wind, and each picks up a bit of speed going with and even more if you know how to surf the waves. The impact to performance is when the waves and the wind are hitting either fore or aft in a quartering fashion (45 deg off the bow or stern) and up to 90 degrees on the Tempest, the Tsunami speed is unaffected by wind and waves at 90 deg and to much less varying degrees from 45 - 90.
So quite possibly the hard chine can affect speed, as I don;t thing the 6" difference in both boat lengths can really cause a speed difference of 0.4 mph by it’s self. To that End I measured a 170 Tempest against my 175 Tsunami and the speed difference here for the same 6" was only 0.1 Mph.
However the Hard chine also seems to lose less speed as conditions deteriorate. and in bad conditions I’ve had the Tsunami Bottom out at 5 mph, where as the tempest (180) bottomed out at 4.9 mph.
So I wouldn’t put much stock into Hard VS soft Chine unless you Specifically race and then make a decision on which boat to run Race Day based on conditions. Yes I take both the Tempest and the Tsunami for entry into the Race in Touring Class.
Would I get more speed if I ran a Purpose built race hull, Sure I’ve run 8.2 Mph on a hull from a Solo Scull that a friend turned into a kayak Would I take it out in any conditions other than perfect, no.
Same goes for a SurfSki, Two years ago, I had to run the 1 Miler, as I was recovering from Covid the week before so I didn’t have enough gas in the tank breathing wise to do more than that. Not one of the surf skis won the 3 and 10 mile races as conditions were so bad both they and the SUP’s were constantly getting dumped at every turn Now normally under good and moderate conditions they are in all the top slots overall but not this time about. the guys in the 14.5 foot and 16 foot touring boats won the day.
So yes a faster hull will speed you u, as is said in the drag racing world, speed is just a question of money but some idiot in the same boat or one that’s not quite as fast is going to stomp you if they have better form which results in energy management.
Fixing you form is free, as is building your aerobic conditioning. Start with a bigger gas tank and better energy management and you can beat those guys in better boats who only think having the best hull available is going to be the do-all-end-all of things.
I’ve beaten guys in Epics, and Fast Sea Kayaks in a 15 miler, as I still had gas in the tank were they were all spent at mile 7 or 8.
I would say look at the point where you speed slows, on your GPS and pay attention to what your body is doing where you begin to slow.
I know if I go off my Metformin and let my blood sugar go up, coupled with drinking gator aid or some such other drink with high potassium, I can get an additional 30 minutes before my muscles start to burn glycogen and start making lactic acid. But that’s also I’m a bit of a science nerd and have studied the muscle respiration cycle.
1 Like
this is probably outdated for double-bladed paddles and the reason wing paddle blades were developed.
As a canoeist I also tried to paddle this way (85°) when I started to paddle in a kayak, but found out it was unpractical with a double-bladed paddle and (thus) without any advantage for my speed.
Thank you for the detailed responses. I will need to read this a few times to make sure I absorbed everything you wrote!
I did a practice yesterday working on my paddling strokes. Here I hope in this video I am now truly at a high angle. It felt a bit awkward thinking my paddle may be too long because I find the other side of the blade really high up in the air so to bring it back down requires a bit of energy and over time, wouldn’t that be very exhausting?
@kanoniem I had tried a wing paddle once with some basic instructions and yes the technique I understand there is basically a mid angle type with a little side sweep.
So which is it that is better for both speed and endurance? A little bit of a sweep or a true high angle? I just want to maintain 5mph for over 2 hours. Not looking to race really.
A little bit of sweep, as it looks like, is fine for speed and endurance.
I can do 5.8 mph for a few hours that way.
A little deviation from a high angle stroke isn’t going to send you to Davy Jones locker or bring you to a crawl. Whatever feel most comfortable is fine. Many people find that a true high angle style takes a bit more conditioning as the muscles used are a bit different from those used in a low angle stroke and are often normally less conditioned in most people. It’s fairly common for people when not kayaking competitively to switch off or paddle at less than a full high angle style.
Regardless, for efficiency you want the full blade of a Euro or wing paddle to be fully in the water, no more and no less, for the majority of a forward stroke. A high angle style requires a shorter paddle than a low angle style.