Looking to upgrade from my 8’ rec kayak

I drive right past Howell on I-96 a couple of times a year on my drives between Pittsburgh and GR-Muskegon area (where I have a bunch of friends and family). Camped one night at a Harvest Host site near the intersection of 23 and 59 on a “Tour de Mitten” with the camper last August.

If you haven’t settled on a kayak upgrade by my next trip (usually in the Spring unless a family event there comes up sooner – wedding or funeral) I could bring the Easky LV along and meet you to try it out. I always bring at least one of the boats with me when I head there.

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If you’re looking at a Rio, may I assume you have an Eddyline dealer around? If so, Take a look at the Equinox (14’). The Sitka (13’9") is a bit more performance-oriented but it may work well for someone your size.
Neither are boats for angry waters, but your original post suggests that rolling, surfing and rock gardening aren’t in your plan. If at some point you venture further out in the Great Lakes, you’ll want something designed for that sort of use. Fortunately, there are worse things than having to buy another boat :smirk:.
As always: (1) check the used markets. You can often get boats in excellent shape for 50% off MSRP and then sell them when you’re ready to upgrade with little or no loss, and (2), try before you buy if at all possible. If your waters are frozen, just sitting in the boats (on foam blocks) for a bit is better than nothing.

Find a 12’ Pungo or Elle Sound. Great yaks that will do all you want till you want to upgrade again. If you can find a CD Breeze BUY it. 13’-6" great kayak that will take you anywhere you want to go.

The Tsunami 125 is a very good yak. I have 2 friends that have then & really like them. I myself have never paddled them however I have paddled the 3 I mentioned in the other post.

I don’t disagree, but you’re assuming the person asking for advice wants a tight fitting boat. How that boat fits is less important than cargo volume. The next post mentions camping, which requires volume. A 168 lb paddler could pack an 80 pound load and still have acceptable freeboard, while I was already overloading the boat. The 125 Tsunami is 12’9" by 26" wide with a 300 lb maximum capacity.

On the other hand, the Eddyline Rio is 11’9" by 24" wide, with a maximum capacity of 270 lbs. The major advantage of the Eddyline is the 37 lb carry weight compared to the 51 lb Tsunami, a 14 lb difference. On a positive note, the Eddyline weight savings helps with load capacity. The question is whether the Eddyline will handle conditions like the Tsunami. For that you better look at the deck height of 12 inches for the Eddyline and compare it to 15 inch deck of the Tsunami. Three inches is significant.

So the user has to ask a question: do I want to play rolly-polly in the surf, do I want a roomy cockpit or tight for better control, do I want to carry cargo, do I want light weight, or would I prefer a comfortable roomy cockpit with great primary stability to stretch and not have to worry about ending up looking at upside down fish.

I’ve never paddled an Eddyline, but I believe it would sink with me under the conditions I typically paddle. Faster doesn’t just mean hull speed. When encountering waves head on, the deck height and safe capacity go together, as does the hull form. Symmetric hulls like the Tsunami are more barge like and will rise on a wave peak, then plunge into the trough. That plunging action increases with speed, so the answer to handling such conditions is to slow down and bob over waves rather than rise and plunge which ultimately washes the cockpit with a sheet of water. It isn’t that the 125 Tsunami can’t handle 12 to 16 inch or even 18 inch waves. It just means you have to slow down. So if the 125 Tsunami can average 4.1 mph over a 21.5 mile trip across open water, you just have to understand the conditions of waves, wind, tide and current. With all thing going in your favor, a 10 mph wind at your back, a falling tide with a river outflow, and 9 inch waves, you can cook along at 5.4 mph. Then you have to pay the piper on the 10.75 mile leg home. If the wind is from the same direction and the speed increases to 15 mph (happens in the afternoon), then the tide reverses direction and is contrary to the wind, you will probably fight 18 inch waves which aren’t so bad from the rear, but your speed will cut in half to avoid plunging into the troughs. Then if you face even a standing .6 mph outflow from the river, that slows progress from 2.7 mph to 2.1 mph. So the average trip in a 125 Tsunami might take 5 hrs 15 min on a calm day with a fortuitous slack or favorable reversing tides, or 10 hrs 30 mins under less favorable conditions. In a 145 Tsunami under similar conditions, the trip take about 4 hrs 45 minutes to 5 hrs, and in a 175 Tsunami, it could be done in 4 hrs 15 to 30 min, because those conditions would impact the 175 even less than the 145.

As a side note, I know I get hate mail for not using a spray skirt. The reason I don’t use one is that I select my kayak for the conditions, and monitor by radio the forecasted conditions and expected changes. I don’t hesitate to change course when conditions are marginal.

The 125 Tsunami might be roomy, but I promise it is very seaworthy, as well as reasonably fast under the right conditions. For the OP, i hope this helps to understand the difference between a snug fit and a cavernous cockpit when paddling open water. Speed isn’t always about hull speed formulas. You need to factor in deck height, hull form, carrying capacity, and stability. A boat with excellent primary stability will bob like a cork as long as you are in waves without a curl (for lack of a better term). Even if I were only 167 lbs, I don’t think I’d take the Eddyline out under the same conditions that I easily face in the 125 Tsunami.

Incidentally, my 15 year old grandaughter who is around 100 lbs has used my 125 Tsunami in open Bay without complaint. She now has a 140 Tsunami and handles it well. My older sister used a 140 Pungo (14’ by 28" wide for years before she bought her own 140 Tsunami, with rudder, which has NEVER been deployed. She faced the same conditions with me. It isn’t that most boats are not suited; it mostly depends on whether some are mores suited for the conditions and your expectation. Test the boat and anticipate your needs. Buy more than one if you have the storage space, and select the one for the task at hand. You don’t haul wood in a sedan, or use the sedan to travel rugged mountain trails. Dont expect one boat to excel in everything, and don’t buy a boat because someone said they like it.

By the way, I’m not saying the 125 Tsunami is right for the OP. Just that I believe there are more parameters in selecting a boat than how your ass fits a seat. I paddled a 140 Duralite Pungo for a while. The speed, roominess, light weight and stability was very appealing. I added a forward bulkhead and deck ropes. However, it pounded in waves and the excessive width for my height was undesirable. Most of all, it couldn’t handle harsh conditions, which are frequent. In the closed deck Tsunamis, I always have the option of diverting to a different course for the day, if an open crossing looks demanding. I’m never more than an hour from landfall, even if it isn’t my launch point. That way, changing weather doesn’t present a challenge, unless I call on them to pick me up in the other side of the bay, but that has never happened.

I’m hoping I’ve found a new yak by spring, but I am also always happy to meet new paddling and camping friends, and there always seems to be so much new knowledge to gain from meeting people. I did message the person in Waterford, unfortunately they are unwilling to meet part way, but I will continue searching :smiley:

Unfortunately no Eddyline dealers anywhere near me :frowning: so I am looking exclusively used. No sitkas near me, but I did find 2 Merlin’s, which if I understand correctly is the older, discontinued brother of the Sitka. I found both the LT and XT models, but my guess is the LT would work best for my 5’7 168 size.
Not looking to do anything crazy, just cruising local lakes and creeks, and occasionally kayak camping.

I think some reacted to your mention of “great lakes” but you said protected waters. If you fit in the Eddyline Rio it could work if you can get all your gear in it for overnight camping. Upgrading to even the Eddyline Skylark might be better, but you would still need the room for camping gear. I sorta doubt either of those will work for that unless you are an ultralight backpacker : ).

There is a lot of useful information here, stuff I’ve been trying to figure out with shape and volume etc. I’m not looking to do anything crazy, I get the impression a lot of folk here are using their experiences kayaking in the ocean or large coastal bays to advise me, but my local lakes are not BIG lakes, the largest open water I may venture into would be like Lake St. Clair or Burt & Mullet Lake, Houghten or Higgins in northern Michigan. Our tougher rivers being Clinton River and Sturgeon River which have SOME class II at worst. But I mostly kayak my local Huron River which may as well be a lazy river. I do want the option to take it out of state for adventures like Algonquin or Adirondacks, but those aren’t rough seas either. I would enjoy still being able to kayak my local lakes in inclement weather, so I want a boat that can handle chop and some waves.

So about the Tsunami, do you really think the 125 would be an ok enough fit? From what I’ve read, it sounds like those half sizes (125, 145, 175) are larger volume boats for bigger than me folk if my understanding is correct. If I go with a tsunami, should I be looking for a 120/140 instead, or will that slightly larger volume of the 125/145 not make that huge of a difference for me? I’m not looking for a Mercedes Benz, just something a little more versatile than my current boat, but that still has good portability, stability, and durability (scraping the occasional rock/log)

Thanks again for the breakdown

The Merlin LT is worth a look IMO.
My partner has a Skylark and loves it. But I agree with @PaddleLite … it may be OK for an overnight, but only with limited gear in relatively tame waters.

I don’t know if you watch Craigslist, but a Perception Carolina just posted in your area :wink:

To be honest, I haven’t used CL in years because of some off putting experiences, but I do use Facebook marketplace! I just replied to your message btw :slight_smile:

Right! When I say Great Lakes I mean sticking to coasts, stuff like Turnip Rock or Government Islands, possibly Isle Royale sticking close to the coast and paddling its inlets and channels, not venturing out into the lakes themselves.

The good news is that I am indeed an ultralight. Not to the extreme extent, but my tent comes in at just 2lbs and can pack an 8 day adventure inside of 30lbs making my total paddler & cargo weight 200lbs give or take. That said, if the Eddyline is a boat that will flip me over in 1’ waves, maybe something more “bargey” would be suitable for me.

I would step back a step and do something before buying a boat - take an Intro to Sea Kayaking class if you can find one. Usually a day long (or 2 half days) and make sure it includes rescues. You likely would have to wait until water warms up, unless someone is working out of a pool. In the class, you should learn solo and 2 person rescue that is much easier than a roll, along with the basics of paddling (much you may know from your time paddling, but there are always things to learn).

Before a class, I would only buy a boat if you can get a deal on a used boat - something you would be able to resell for what you paid in case it doesn’t turn out to be the right boat for you. Truthfully, even if you find the right boat now, that likely is just delaying when you sell it. Most of us who have been paddling for years have gone through lots of boats over those years.

If you don’t know about how different classes of boats are different, you may also want to read an article on boats available online. California Kayaker Magazine - South West's source for paddlesports information, issue 10. The PDF version still works (Yudu doesn’t). That same issue has an article on the 2 person rescue - that could also be worth reading.

Some of the boats mentioned in prior posts are just larger recreational class boats than what you currently have, which might be appropriate for what you want to do. But these boats can be hard to impossible to self- or 2-person- rescue in. So might be good to make sure you understand the difference in boat types, what features are required from a kayak to b able to do a rescue (or to make it easier), and whether to will need that. The mention you make of paddling the great lakes to protected islands on the great lakes is still exposing you to vastly more risk than the lakes and rivers, so if that’s something you will do, a low flotation rec boat would greatly increase the risk. But an option would be to buy a rec boat that works for the ponds and rivers, and rent when you want to go out in larger waters.

Even if you do go for another rec boat, the rescues in the intro class can still be tried in that boat. If you are able to rescue them, that tells you that you can go into a bit more water than if you find you can’t (where you’d really wan to always stay within swimming distance of shore).

Here is my take. I started out in canoes many years ago and still love paddling them. I like a 16-foot canoe in both tandem and solo. The Idea that boats need to be short to do twisty rivers is overstated in my opinion unless you are doing white water.

I got into kayaking many years later. Started out in a 10 foot cheap plastic and had loads of fun in it both fishing and running down rivers, but quickly realized it was slow and had limitations in rough water. I did play in the surf in it and had fun, but it was woefully inadequate for much like when I surfed my canoe.

Covered deck is good for open water Open deck good for packing and portaging. Hull shape is also a determining factor as much as length and width.

As a result, I went to a used fiberglass 17’4" sea kayak it weighs just 52 pounds that cost me $650 with a decent fiberglass paddle. What an eye opener that was. I love canoe and kayak camping, and this boat fit the bill. I could surf it camp from it, and I have taken it down twisty narrow rivers that I canoe. It’s not as maneuverable as my canoe, but it is maneuverable enough. I don’t think a short boat is needed on rivers. However, if I was going to be portaging, I would want a canoe, and like them better than kayaks for rivers.

I think a 15-16 foot narrow kayak 23" or under made out of fiberglass would be light, fast and very capable. They are tough not delicate and easily repaired.

Here are some photos to show both 16–18’ boats paddling in tight water. So, 15’ should work fine.

Pungo 14 and Tarpon 16 on twisty, narrow Juniper Springs Run FL.

Ken is in an 18" Wenonah Voyager canoe on Juniper Springs Run.

This is a group overnight trip down Cedar Creek to the Congaree River in SC. A mix of canoes and kayaks all 16’ or over.

This is what a long narrow kayak can also handle. You should consider the Great Lakes as small oceans or seas.

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Lakes can be deceiving. Although most don’t have much current flow, a mile wide body of water or one that has a long open stretch can be vastly different when wind changes direction. @szihn paddles a lake called Boysen Reservoir. The width ranges between 1 to 2 km and a little more than 5 km at its widest point, but it’s several miles long. Unexpected winds can reach gale force in short order. He wears anchors on his PFD so the wind doesn’t blow him away. Remember also, that wind will build a current, especially if blowing overnight for 12 hours. You need to find people in the area to understand variables that change conditions. For example, I have one passage where the confluence of several river meet the bay and form shoals. Waves heights can double in that area within 15 to 30 minutes with an ebbing tide, especially with the winds blowing overnight and building from 10 mph to 15 or 20 mph out of the South. Know your area. Get charts. Keep track of your progress. Learn about your boat on trips that are closer to land. Experiment with the limited protection offered by lee shores. Understand storm progression in your area. I’ve been on several trips with fair weather clouds and favorable forcast predictions, when my experience with reading changing cloud layers enabled me to curtail an open water trips and avoid violent unforeseen storms.

A trip to Juniper Springs would be good aboùt now.

Wind makes currents in lakes? :thinking:

That’s something I never thought of. In fact, it never crossed my mind.
Boysen has a current at times on it’s sought end but that from the Wind River dumping in and I have only felt it in the spring after the thaw.
Boysen is about 19 miles long north to south and as narrow as 1.2 miles east to west in places, bhut as wide as 5.5 miles at it’s widest. On the north end there are places it’s close to 200 feet deep but much of it is about 90-120 feet deep. What makes it a challenge is the wind River Canyon. That canyon is dammed by the very dam that makes the lake and that dam is right at it’s pinch point, which forms a wind tunnel that has few equals. So the wind fetch at times can be pretty impressive. Winds sweeping over the surface at about 20 MPH are quite common but the times when it drops from the north and through the canyon the wind on the northern part can be 45 MPH when the rest of the lake is still at 20 MPH. Add that to the fact that you sometimes get no warning of a coming wind shear. If I am out in the wide northern part and I get "jumped’ by a wind shear I can be dealing with waves driven by 30-50 MPH winds, and from the time I know it’s coming to the time I have it hit me is about 2-3 minutes. Several times I have just had to give up, give my stern to the wind at a slight angle (5:00 or 7:00) and just let it blow me where it blows me to get out of the water. I have had to let it push me in, landing somewhere a long way from where I’d want to go, and just wait for the winds to die down. Thankfully such shears seldom last more then about 90 minutes and after a wait I can get back in the water and get back to my truck. The dangerous times are when it’s driving me toward a cliff and the cliff wall here can be anywhere from 3/4 to 3 miles long, so if you are blown towards one of them you HAVE TO get some control because you can’t get out of the lake at those places.

But coming back to your comment John, how does wind make currents in a lake? Is it just from a swirling action? I understand the action of tides from my days in the Marines, but tidal currents come from gravitational movement of water. Wind adds wave height at times, but that’s because of resistance of the air over the water, and the more the water moves in opposition to the wind the larger the waves get. But I don’t understand how wind by itself could make current.

HOWEVER, I am willing to learn if I am only showing my ignorance here. Can you explain?

OOps. I went to look at the state park page and I was wrong. Boysen is not close to 200 feet deep. It’s only about 120 feet deep.

Coming back to the idea of currents developing… I’d assume the depth of the water might effect it…or is that wrong?

Stayed at a cottage on Higgins, the provided kayaks were 9’ Otters and were fine for the conditions. Like anywhere, it is smart to keep an eye on the weather. On the bigger lakes, suggest considering bright colors for visibility. Seems like (in Michigan anyway) that the bigger the lake the more random the paths of the boats. When it is busy I tend to circle the lake staying near-ish to shore.