I’ve been saving for a new boat to get me out on bigger waters like some of the small islands off the coast of the Great Lakes (short distances/protected waters), and possibly places like Algonquin and Boundary Waters, but the vast majority of my time in the boat will be spent on local lakes and rivers in southeastern Michigan.
I’m coming from an 8’ Fisher Price barge basically, so anything is an upgrade. But is 12’ enough boat?
I’m looking at an Eddyline Rio, the beam is 24” and length 11’9, the hull is v shaped, but flatter than a true touring kayak. Cockpit seems a little small, but then I’m used to kayaking in Tupperware so I’m sure I’d grow used to it.
Worth mentioning I plan to keep the 8’ or replace it with a 10-10.5’ for creeks and narrow rivers.
I know I want more speed, and despite the cheap 8’ being a toy I can push 3mph for hours on calm water (though it tracks like a drunk person on a bike) so I’m hoping to see a reasonable improvement in both speed and tracking (but understand the trade off for better tracking is often less stability)
Many people online have strongly suggested 14+’ boats like the Perception Carolina or Wilderness Systems Pungo or Tsunami etc- but I worry about ease of hauling it up on the car, to and from shore given they are rotomolded and quite hefty. Anyway, I keep going ‘round in circles with what I should get and I know y’all are pretty knowledgeable and experienced with larger craft.
I’m 5’7 168lbs, and a string paddler who comes from a background of endurance sports. Whatever I upgrade to, I full plan on taking rolling and self rescue classes.
I would not limit myself to a 14 foot length unless there are some considerations you didn’t mention.
If you want to learn to roll I would strongly suggest a touring kayak with a low rear deck. Not that mid and high deck kayaks can’t be rolle3d, but they are far more difficult to learn in. I have bought and re-sold over 3 dozen kayaks in the last few years and have paddled most of them. I have 3 I have kept, but only 1 of them is “not for sale” at all and it’s my Necky Chatham17. My other 2 are a Pertception Sea Lion Shadow and an Eddyline Fathom.
The Chatham is 62 pounds. The Sea Lion is 64 pounds. The Fathom is 50 pounds. Opinions vary, but I feel a kayak is “heavy” at about 70+ pounds, and my low 60 pound range kayaks never felt hard to move for me. I am a bit shorter then you at 6’6" but I out weight you by 19 pounds.
That said a light kayak is a joy to use. With light weight comes vulnerability or expanse (or both) I have damaged and repaired my Fathom (now stronger then it was new) but thew same kind of blow would not have done anything to my Chatham or my Sea Lion.
Because you have an action sports background my guess is that you’d be most happy with a 16-18 foot kayak. Touring kayaks can be a bit pricy so it is good to consider the details before you spend money.
Rudder of Skeg?
More of less rocker?
Mostly rocky shores of more “reasonable” shores?
Any possibility of trips of 4 days and longer?
Budget? (this is a big one)
If the budget is open I may have a tip for you.
I bought a Rebel kayak from VitemanSea paddle shop in Canada ( https://vitaminsea.ca ) in September and the owner is going to deliver it to me in March or April. Her name is Jacqueline. She’s driving the truck through the Great Lakes area and across the northern USA to go back into Canada near Vancouver, but will make deliveries inside the USA on that trip, and had about 15 different kayaks to choose from. So if such a kayak is realistic to you I might suggest you contact her and see what she has in stock. (tell her Steve in Wyoming told you to call her) Look over the Rebel Kayak line and see if there is something there that would delight you.
And on another note:
If you’d just like someone to bounce ideas off of, please feel free to contact me .
Happy Paddling.
There is a limiting factor, that is what can fit in my garage. I could theoretically fit a 15’ boat on the wall or ceiling, but that would be max.
The Important thing to know, I’m not taking my boat into the ocean. At worst, the coast and inlets of Isle Royale. Mostly going to be in local inland lakes and rivers of Michigan which I’ve been paddling happily in an 8’ recycled milk jug. I’m looking for the next step, something I can learn in and have fun in, kind of like how I went from a beach cruiser to a city bike to a carbon road bike, I’d like to progress naturally and learn along the way.
Another factor is that I really enjoy the idea of kayak camping, so ideally I want a capable boat that’s also light while portaging on the trail.
But on a day to day basis, it’s import that my boat is as accessible as it is fun so that I’m encouraged to get out on the local lakes after work and cruise around.
I strongly understand that you shouldn’t buy a kayak sight unseen, but since I’m shopping second hand, I’ll be limited to just sitting in the kayak to get a feel, which is why I am trying to learn as much as I can about sizing, stern, bow and hull shapes and how they effect paddling.
That way I can make a somewhat informed decision.
I have an idea of what I want, but that is mostly “tracks better and faster than my 8’ pop bottle”, along with being safer (bulkheads) and more storage. I don’t think I’d enjoy jumping straight into something far more advanced and twitchy that requires advanced paddling techniques to enjoy, so something a bit more transitional.
I paddle in SE Michigan. I use my 11.5’ on the Middle Rouge, with distances up to 4mi. It is fun in small areas, but it has a bluff bow and throws water when I cruise. Over 4mi, like on the Huron and in Kensington Metropark, I much prefer my 15’. A longer kayak with a sharp entry really feels better when you’re cruising.
In fact, I have a 14’ Perception Carolina with a rudder that I could let you try out at Kensington next spring. The cockpit’s too small for me so I never use it.
I’ve been considering a Carolina 14. I have a few of them bookmarked right now. If I go with a 14 over 12, I’ve been looking at the Carolina and Tsunami 14, but also have a couple Eddyline Merlins and Necky 14’s saved
Love paddling Kent Lake btw! And the section of Huron from Island Lake to Huron Meadows is one of my favorites… no houses, power lines etc and barely any people.
Carolina is a barge, Tsunami 14 might be a better boat, just not sure… You can always put a tarp over the boat. I have six boats and they are covered with a tarp. My go to boat is 18’ 3" X 21.25 wide. She is fast and can carry a good amount of gear.
If you are like many, you will work your way through a few different kayaks over time. I found that buying used lets you use it for a while and easily resell it for a similar price assuming you didn’t overpay of course. Get a 12’ rec boat or 14’ or 15’ or whatever seems like a nice boat to you and they all will kick the butt of a 8 footer. As you progress you may decide you like a narrow fast boat or a user friendly large cockpit or whatever. Similar to your second boat idea, I have kept a 9.5’ Perception as a second boat as it is light, large cockpit is non-threatening to beginners, it actually paddles and tracks pretty well and maneuvers on tight rivers easily.
My favorite is a Pungo 140. I’m big 6’5", 220 and it is very comfortable, handles bumpy water very well and is relatively fast. Relatively means it falls between my
Tarpon 140 and my Stellar S14S .
I paddle it the most often.
To do rolls, you would need a cockpit that can have a somewhat secure skirt attached to it. If you look at the Seals Sprayskirt sizing page (Seals Sprayskirts - Sizing), the number given relates to the size of the cockpit (larger number larger cockpit). You’d want 2.2 at largest, likely smaller would be better.
Note - you dont have to use Seals skirts - just listing because it is easy to size. Seals is good, but some think other brands are better.
You should see speed and tracking improvements with going even a couple feet longer and a few inches narrower. But a jump to say 14’ should be a huge improvement jump. Given what you say you want to do and your storage limit, I’d consider going straight to a 14’ boat.
At your size, if a boat comes in 2 volume sizes,youd probably want small. If 3 sizes, regular volume or maybe small volume.
Definitely consider used. You’ll pay maybe half of new and if you find you don’t like that model, you can resell for what you paid. Likely none on market now, but they will be in spring/summer.
The open Great Lakes should be treated as ocean regarding skills and gear needed.
Having two kayaks, one in the 12’ range and one in the 14’ range, has worked out great for me and I wouldn’t give up my boats. Plus, I’m a big fan or rotomolded polyethylene for its toughness.
I read through your intended usages again, and in 2023 I was in the same position (except that I’ve never had ambition to go onto the great lakes or to roll). I came over from distance cycling and small lakes, and I was putting together plans to go down the Huron River water trail, with the dream of canoe camping along the way.
I bought the used Carolina and then found I was too long (I’m 6’-2"), so I kept my eye on Craigslist and bought my Charleston, which has worked out great. Last summer I went down the Huron twice and I was able to fit all my camping gear below decks. I could not have fit my gear into my 11.5, and I would not want to plow water in for 104 miles. Canoe camping down the Huron is wonderful, and I’m looking forward to doing the Huron trip many more times.
On the other hand, I think 14’ or 15’ is the useful limit to go down the Huron. Longer than that and dodging trees must be very difficult. 12’ is the useful limit for small rivers and small lakes, such as the Rouge. Two kayaks, one in the 10-12’ range and one in the 14’ range, is a great way to go. It’s amazing how much difference that 2’ or 3’ makes.
Very useful comment, thank you. I am too dreaming of kayak camping down the Huron! Glad to know doing so in a 14’ is possible. I’ll likely buy a 14’ now and keep my 8’ for creeks and narrow rivers and then continue saving so I can replace the 8’ with a quality 12’ yak.
I don’t plan on going out into the open Great Lakes, but there are a number of small islands off the coasts that I’d be interested in checking out on calm weather days, like government islands in the southeastern UP or Turtle Island in Lake Erie. Also interested in kayaking around Belle Isle or even from Belle to Grosse Isle in the Detroit River. The reason I mentioned rolling is because I thought it was an essential safety thing. I still have a lot to learn haha, but water is a force to be reckoned with so I want to be safe in my adventures.
I’m close to your size (5’ 5" with long legs for my height and 150-155 pounds). I mostly paddle rivers and lakes locally (SW Pennsylvania) but also the coastal Atlantic and the Great Lakes, including Lake Michigan (having lived in Grand Rapids for 8 years when I first started kayaking and still visit family along the west coast of MI and attend kayak skills camps there.) So I’ll throw in my 2 cents. I have owned over 20 kayaks in the past 23 years and currently have 10 of them ranging from 12’ to 19’ with every length in between. Weights range from 24 pounds to 55 pounds, but the 18’ one is among the lightest, a Greenland style hand built skin on frame kayak that is only 31 pounds.
I really think you would be happiest, based on what you have stated is important to you in performance, with a low volume lighter weight 14 or, better yet, 15’ touring kayak with a beam of 22" to 24". I have 4 kayaks in that approximate range which are the ones that I use most and I find they give the best balance of speed, comfort, portability tracking in narrow to wide flatwater rivers, some open whitewater streams with class 1 and 2 rapids, large windy lakes and coastal conditions with waves, wind and strong currents.
First off, what’s your budget? You can get wonderfully light and nimble kayaks from Stellar that are 25% lighter than plastic rotomold boats of similar design. And if your budget won’t handle several thousand dollars for a boat, are you willing to have the patience to search the used market and possibly travel to pick up the right boat? This is actually a good time to buy a used boat. I track that market regularly as I am always picking up good boat deals that I either restore and resell or find for friends and family who are looking for boats. There are many more boats in the market now than have been for several years, in part because many people who started paddling during the early years of covid have either lost interest or they are ready to upgrade to fancier boats.
If you intend to paddle the coastal Great Lakes you really need to consider a boat at least 14 feet (again, 15’ is a hair better) and that has a skeg or rudder so you can counteract strong lateral currents and winds. A rudder can be flipped up or even removed if you are paddling rivers or calm lakes and a skeg retracts into the hull to be out of the way when you don’t need it for tracking.
The Pungo is not a good choice for a large cold lake like Michigan – cockpit is way too big. And the Eddyline Rio is too small for safety in coastal conditions – a shorter boat can be really tough to get back to shore if you go to far out. You already have a short boat for local smaller waters – the RIO might make those a little faster by won’t really expand your destination range.
You want a standard sized cockpit, like around 34" by 19", plus or minus 1 or 2 inches each way. That’s large enough to allow you to plop your butt in the seat and pull each leg in one at a time, also to allow you to brace your knees under the foredeck of the cockpit for control of the boat and rolling, but also small enough to support a decent sprayskirt, which is an absolute necessity for rolling and for open water touring and large lakes and oceans, even in large rivers. Lake Michigan is relatively cold so you need to be able to seal yourself in the cockpit for that reason too.
For your weight and body metrics, a low volume kayak will fit you better and be more fun to paddle. These have a lower height profile and are narrower than other kayaks in those length classes and this also means that they are lighter than shorter, wider and deeper boats since they use less material. For instance, the plastic Perception Carolina 14 you are considering is 24.5" wide and weighs 53 pounds. My Venture Easky 15LV is 15’ long, 22" wide and only weighs 45 pounds. I’m 74 and can still lift it onto my roofrack by myself. It’s also much faster and tracks better than a Carolina (i have rented Carolinas during travels). Even my fiberglass Perception Avatar at 16’ long with 22" beam, another low volume boat, only weighs 49 pounds. I only paid $300 for that one used – it was missing it’s hatch covers which I was able to replace for less than $70.
If you could find a used Venture Easky 15LV I think you’d really enjoy it. I’ve used it as a “loaner boat” for many of my friends and family when I take them out kayaking and everybody has loved the stability, tracking and speed they can get in it, both newcomers to kayaking and people with intermediate level experience. They do pop up occasionally for sale (Venture stopped making the model about 6 years ago) – there were 2 in my state in the past year for under $700. One is up for auction now in NC: https://www.allsurplus.com/asset/516/3712
There was a discussion 8 years ago on here started by a guy your size who was considering buying an Easky 15LV – you can read it here to see what he thought of it. His review of it is the last entry if you scroll through:
Not that light, but the Riot Edge 14.5 would be a good choice for you. One of my most frequent paddling buddies has one and it’s a very competent and versatile kayak.
Don’t feel limited by distance in buying a used boat. It can often be possible to negotiate a delivery. I’ve delivered boats myself (kayaks and canoes) to other P.commers in nearby states over the years, both ones I sold or ones they bought from others. I often travel to Michigan (was there traveling around the state for 10 days last August) since I have family and friends there and have delivered boats there several times, also drove once from Pittsburgh to Muskegon to take the ferry across to Wisconsin to buy a rare boat I wanted. I travel in a converted box truck that I can carry several boats inside.
Welcome to the paddling community. I see that you are in S.E Michagan. That has you local to me (I’m between Lansing & Jackson). There is a lot of good information so far in the above posts. I’d like to highlight the the Great Lakes (and especially Superior) are INLAND SEAS and can be as (or more) dangerous than the ocean. They are also cold once you get off-shore. Especially on Superior there are many places where safe landings are far & few between.
You mention Boundry Waters & Algonquin for some trips. Much of those waters are ‘Canoe Country’ due to portages. Canoes are easy to load & unload at rough landings. Your gear doesn’t need to be repacked and a canoe is fairly easy to get up on your shoulders for a walk in the woods. With a kanya, you gear is packed in many small bags that need to be consolidated for the carry.
I’m a member of a local paddling club, the Lansing Oar And Paddle Club (LOAPC). Since you are close by I’d like to suggest that you come join us for some meetings and trips. many or our ‘Rec’ trips are suitable for your current kayak. We organize trips through MEETUP (free to join the Meetup). Club membership is $20 per year. This link is a good start: Join | Lansing Oar and Paddle Club We meet in East Lansing on the third Tuesday during the off season (November - May). We will have a plan for 2025 paddles available at the 2025 Quiet Adventures Symosium March 1 (https://www.quietadventures.org/)
Also in Michigan I have two recommendations for training & guided trips:
The Power of Water has pool sessions in Howell through the winter & they are top ACA instructors: https://www.thepowerofwater.net/play/paddling-school/pool-sessions/
Michael Gray at Uncommon Adventures is also a top instructor, guide & cook. https://www.mi-paddleadventure.com/ If you are thinking of an Isle Royale trip I HIGHLY recommend going on one of his trips.
Hopefully I’ll see you on the water. You can send a private message to me if you would like more information.
Thank you so much for the super detailed and thoughtful reply. This is full of useful information. I have a few marketplace boats saved that are in IL, PA and OH respectively. I looked up that Venture Easky and there happens to be one in Waterford PA for under $700. maybe they would be willing to meet me halfway in Cleveland… then I could take it for a test paddle in the Cuyahoga haha. There is also an older Riot with a skeg in Indianapolis. Locally, there is a Tsunami 125 near me for $500 that comes with a carbon fiber paddle… shorter boat but maybe good for me to learn and grow in? There is also a Merlin LT for $700, it’s just under 14’ and a lower volume boat. Though I’m a little afraid of thermoformed kayaks since I paddle a lot of rocky/ obstacle ridden waters.
Waterford is up near Erie if I recall correctly, about 2 hours north of me and probably 3 hours from you. If the Easky is not an LV model it will be a little bigger than my LV (I think it is 2 pounds heavier) but probably still fit you.
I would not recommend a Tsunami 125 for you. Too short for the big lakes and kind of wide and sluggish. Built as more of a day recreation boat for big husky guys – at 26" wide and as deep as the hull is you would have poor control.
I’m 6’ tall and when I weighed 250 lbs, I regularly paddled the 125 Tsunami across 10.5 miles of open water on the Upper Chesapeake (without spray skirt). I eventually upgraded to the 145 and then the 175 Tsunami to better handle harsher conditions and to improve the speed.so I could go further. I felt total confidence in the boat and still do under favorable conditions.
Just making a point about the the 125 Tsunami (12’ 9" long by 26" wide). Its a slower boat, but not necessarily slow for the capacity. Despite my weight overloading the safe load equation, its very seaworthy.
It’s simply my opinion, so I have no desire to entertain hate mail that suggests that I’m a rube. I’m not suggesting that the Tsunami is suitable for the Great Lakes. Test it first under different conditions, then offer critique and opinions.
My recommendations were based on the OP being 5’ 7" and an athletically wiry 168 pounds. He’s far closer to my proportions than to yours. Like I do, he’d swim in a Tsu 125.
