Looking to upgrade from my 8’ rec kayak

Relying on info detailed in the attached book, I can’t immediately answer your question, but I can find the book and post the citation.

This is the most valuable book I’ve found for kayaking. Contrary to a few reviews on the book, the information is not too technical to understand or to retain for practical application.

Under the heading on the influence of wind, wave, tides and currents, he explains that a 10 mph wind blowing unobstructed for 12 hours will generate a .6 mph current. I just accept his comments at face value and found them helpful in assessing how forces impact performance. I’ve satisfied my own curiosity through analysing GPS data.

As I explained to you in email messages, I don’t focus much on technical kayaking skills. You’ve developed greater technique in a few years than I’ve been able to hone over 15 or more years of paddling. My primarily interest is paddling efficiency and understanding the forces working for or against me. With the help of that book, I better understanding the paddling environment so I can best harness energy reserves. That helos me to achieve virtually flat line average speeds over the duration of a trip, whether going into or against conditions.

You’ve seen my speed graphs. How effectively I’ve been able to manage that goal is for you to decide, but I’m satisfied. While most kayakers paddle for fun and aren’t the least bit interested in such voodoo, I use each trip as a practical lab to test the author’s theories. I loaned the book to someone and lost track of it, so I recently bought another. I loaned another book to someone and lost track of it. That book details the history and features of the Chesapeake Bay, as well as the dynamic forces that make it nutrient rich for acquatic life. It covers such things as salinity distribution, the churning action of heavier salt water flowing under the outgoing fresh water, estimating distances, the curvature of the earth on line of sight, drift and ranging to stay on course. The trip course I take is often selected based on chasing the tide line which is highly visible during peak pollen, because it creates a distinct green line on the water surface. In a kayak, the subtle forces are instantly felt while paddle through the churning water. I posted pictures to you of the currents that swirl around navigational aids.

While others are watching ducks, my attention is on the force of the water and turning it to my benefit or how to fight it most efficiently. Sorry I can’t verify it all of this, but I do believe land bound water bodies of water are influenced by lunar forces; they just aren’t as pronounced. Realize that especially the moon exerts a constant force that pushes the water in a perpetual circle around the earth. It shows up locally as a rise and fall, but it’s actually in constant motion in one direction, unless it gets trapped. The Chesapeake Bay is a unique channeled body of water in that the length results in a high at one end and a low at the other, and similar conditions throughout. The tide charts are mainly based on lunar influence, but the wind forces, especially when blowing north or south, have a major impact that can double the effect of the normal tide range (between 1.2 or 1.8 ft). The turn at Battery Point on my test course is a tidal datum point. It takes about 30 minutes for the tide to reverse 5 miles further north in the narrow feeder streams. If you understand the intervals, you can ride the tide up those winding channels, then gauge your prediction by how closely you arrive at the reversal. With the right counterclockwise air pressure system off the coast of Virginia, water is forced up the bay, and when combined with a strong wind out of the south, tides can inceease by 3 ft. That allows further exploration into the marshes.

Sorry for imposing this topic on uninterested viewers, but I know you, Steve, have an interest in such topics, and that you want to paddle tidal waters. This explaind why speed calculations and timing is so important to me. It “can be” like a plane jumping into the jet stream, or simply arriving on location at the right moment.

One benefit to accurately predicting peak tide is bei g on station to ride tidal outflow from water bottled up in several basins that have restricted entrances. Fairlee Creek (10.5 mile trip across the bay, a 4.45 hour round trip) and Still Pond, over 18 miles up the bay, an 8 hour round trip are two examples. While the trip across the bay isn’t influenced much by conditions in the right boat, the trip up the bay can be helped by a 2.4 mph tidal inflow, or hindered by a 3 mph outflow, or traversed during a mostly nuetral phase (my one 38.75 mile round trip to Still Pond faced an outflow and took 8 hrs 20 min.

These attachments are extracted from google searches to give a little insight.



I think you would enjoy paddling this area. While some consider the Bay treacherous and unpredictable, I believe it’s more predictable and friendly to the paddler than bodies like the Great Lakes or San Francisco Bay with the cold water, or the high tidal influence of the inlets of British Columbia or the coast of Maine.

I fully agree with @Peter-CA and counsel patience. Around here much of the water is pretty hard and the water that is open is too cold for most of us to be trying out a new class of boats. There is plenty of time until warmer water & more used boats are offered closer to spring. Besides the pool sessions and the LOAPC meetings I mentioned I would recommend signing up for the WMCKA Memorial weekend symposium: https://wmcka.org/symposium This event is very beginner friendly and you can often get a rental sea kayak from the Power of Water.

I will seek and buy that book John. I am not performance driven in the same way you are but I think I am in a different way. I want to learn all I can about kayaking and being land-locked away from any ocean, there are aspects of the sport I just can’t learn on my own here. So reading such information and understanding it is valuable to me even if I would not use that information close to home. I hope to someday go to Alaska and the Great lakes to paddle, and the more I know about it beforehand, the less likely I am to be blind-sided.

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The book is highly regarded. Look on line. I’ll send you a link. Much more than going from point A to point B.

I’m not sure if I understand the correct format. Sorry if I’m out of line. I’ve been mostly river running and some lake jumping and portage in the Boundry Waters. I’ve been told to keep it 14’ or more for the lakes and short for the rivers I run. I have a Jackson Zen 3.0L and a Solaria 13.5’. I like both and haven’t had any problems with either. Some may disagree, but they both serve me well.
I’m 6’3" tall and around 230lbs. I’ve lost about 20-25lbs. I hope this helps you.

You had mentioned that you wanted speed and tracking, also that you would like to learn rolling and self-rescue. I’ve tried to keep those aspects in mind with my suggestions of low volume, 14 or 15’ touring kayaks, with lightness in mind as well (another factor you mentioned).

Some of the suggestions you’ve gotten on here just don’t address those parameters – I get the feeling some folks make recommendations without actual reading the details on what an OP is looking for. Some of the boats suggested would not be improvements on what you already have or would not be feasible for open water safety skills development.

I hope you can get a chance to actually test paddle a range of kayaks before you make a choice, though “demo days” seem to have become a thing of the past, unfortunately.

One plus about attending skills camps is that other attendees are usually pretty generous about letting you try out their own boats. At the QajaqUSA camp in Delmarva last October there were over 100 instructors and students and roughly 115 sea kayaks of all types. I brought 3 different ones myself, and loaned them to people who were not able to bring their own boats for the classes and outings.

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I use my 145 Tsunami in open Bay and in the narrow, twisty marshes and feeder streams with hairpin turns. I could use the 125 Tsunami, but the 145 works fine with the right sweep or rudder strokes.

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Hey I have an excellen tused vinage P&H Scorpio kayak for cheap - you’d need to make a road trip to Wesern North Carolina but the boat might be exactly what you want. Contact me fir more info.

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I taught sea kayaking and wrote articles about the sport way back in the 1970/80s and one of the first things most people wanted me to teach them was the eskimo roll. I never did. Why? Because while many people seem to think that the eskimo roll guarantees their safety nothing could be further from the truth. While the hot shot rough water sea kayaking crowd makes performing spectacular rolls look easy the “average” sea kayaker will, if unexpectedly tipped over, bail out. It’s one thing to do a roll in the warm comfort of the local YMCA swimming pool, quite another to do one when an unseen wave knocks you over while paddling through 15 mph winds 2 miles offshore! So I’d suggest that “rollability” should not be at the top of your “must have” kayak list. In fact the boats most easily rolled are generally the easiest to tip over. As I use to tell my students: “Rule #1 in sea kayaking is don’t tip over!” Over the curse of many years I paddled thousands of miles along the oft times challenging coast of Maine and never once tipped over.

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You’ll need to determine how you plan to use your yak. I’m 78 and decided on a 15’ composite (48 lb) with rudder. Easier to handle, fast enough with enough storage for an over night or two camping and day paddles. Length does matter. Flat bottoms slow and need a rudder and don’t respond well in worsening conditions.

Good luck
Chuck

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Hi Jeremy,
I have had several kayaks, including a beloved 12’ Pungo which got too heavy for me when I hit 75 years old. I now have a Current Design Kestrel, a 38 pound 12’ 6" kayak with a width of 26" and a nice large 38 x 17.5" cockpit with comfortable adjustable seat. I hate tiny cockpits as I am now 85 and like the ease of entry and exit that I have with this boat. Kestrel has a small front hatch and a large rear hatch. My dimensions are 5’6" and 130 pounds. Good luck finding a boat you love!

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Hi Willowleaf
Did I once buy a boat from you on Cape Coe? The smallest boat you built? My initials are MF. If you are my old friend, please let me know!

Hi String,
I had a 12’ Pungo for several years and loved it. It was like sitting in a comfortable easy chair while paddling to my heart’s delight in wonderful bays and ponds on Cape Cod, MA.
Sadly, as I continue to age, my lifting strength declined and I had to sell my Pungo and get a smaller, lighter kayak. I now have my Old Lady dream boat , a 38 lb Current Design “Kestrel”. She is a 12’ 6" kayak who will probably be my last kayak (I am 85).

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You are an inspiration @ivyabby.
Santé !

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Hi, MF. Sorry, but it could not have been me. I’ve not been in Cape Cod since a brief trip in the early 80’s and though I own couple of hand built kayaks, have never built one myself.

Kudos to you for staying with the paddling that you love. I hope to continue to do so myself as long as I can and share your “old lady” preference for lighter boats (I’ll be 75 this year).

Your Kestrel is a nice little kayak that sounds perfect for the waters you favor. If you ever feel the urge to go even lighter, I have a 12’ Pakboat Puffin folding kayak in my fleet that is only 24 pounds, and a Curtis Lady Bug 13’ solo canoe that’s around 33 pounds. Hornbeck and other makers have even lighter solo canoes, some under 15 pounds and Stellar has been coming out with some remarkable new ultralight kayaks. Something to keep in mind if even 38 pounds becomes unmanageable. Though I theorize that hefting and handling, as well as paddling, boats has been good exercise that has helped me stay strong and fit as I get older.

Another thing I think has helped me keep paddling has been switching to Greenland paddles 15 years ago. They take less effort and put less strain on our elder joints.

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Good idea! Close to shore is more interesting anyway - doncha think! If you are way away from shore, it all looks the same.

Staying near shore is a good safety practice to stay in protected water, but beware offshore winds if you get out from the wind shadow.

With onshore winds beware of shoaling where waves can suddenly increase, reflected waves which can lead to a confused sea state, and shorelines where you cannot land safely.

Well friends, I did a thing today. I know some of you probably won’t agree with my decision, but I am over the moon excited and that’s what matters. I’ve spent the last several months looking at and researching boats, asking advice and lamenting over what would work best for me. I concluded that like bikes, you need more than one.

I also knew I didn’t want a massive sea kayak as I don’t live close to or spend much time at all on large or coastal open bodies of water, nor do I have the storage space for one.

I went back and forth on Tsunamis, Carolina’s and Venture kayaks between 12-14’ but landed on the Jackson Journey. It’s 13.5’, blasts good tracking and stability while still being amply maneuverable giving me confidence to take it on the narrow obstacle ridden rivers I love, but will also serve me just as well in bigger water, far more than my little blue teardrop could. It has great storage capacity too. And did I mention the colors!? I’m in love.
It came with a really nice Werner carbon fiber touring paddle as well. Paid $650 for everything. Plan on adding a rudder before summer. Now I just need to invest in some safety gear like a bilge pump, paddle leash & float and nav lights for my night paddles.


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Yo Jeremy,
What a gorgeous kayak! I bet you will have wonderful trips in this beautiful boat. It looks to be twice the length of your little pumpkin seed kayak and will track beautifully I bet.
Two big hatches, a nice cockpit for you to get a snug rubber spray skirt. Make sure you get a paddle leash and a bilge pump to self rescue. Have some wonderful adventures!!
Best to you,
Margot

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You may be right regarding much of this, but you’re missing an important component: not only is learning to roll extremely fun, but it gives paddlers a greater sense of control of their kayaks, and teaches them better bracing. Even if you’re never going on rough water, and you never expect to have to roll in “real life,” to me it’s definitely worth learning if you have an interest in doing so. Of course, if it freaks you out, don’t bother!

Congrats on the new boat, OP, looks nice!