Redundancy IS good
By its very name, redundancy, it implies there’s more than ONE way to handle the situation. Electronics can be a backup (aka redundency) when used IN ADDTION to skill and common sense (e.g. checking the weather).
REPLACING common sense with electronics, you ended up with still no redundency. When the electronics fails, there’s nothing else to back it up.
i had that same question.
Also, why didn’t they wait for the boys to catch up before paddling to the island?
Agreed
I don’t think your points are incompatible with the previous poster’s. These kids would still be alive if better judgment had been used, but there’s at least a decent chance that they’d also still be alive if the group had carried VHF and/or EPIRB. The most important piece of safety gear is between your ears, but sometimes that piece of gear fails, and it’s not a bad thing to be able to use that redundant safety gear to save you from your own mistakes. I think that’s particularly true of this kind of group situation where there may not be anyone in the group who has a clear understanding of the risks the group is facing. It’s all well and good–and perfectly true–to say that they should have known better than to be out there, but they apparently didn’t.
Managing risk
"The most important piece of safety gear is between your ears, but sometimes that piece of gear fails, and it’s not a bad thing to be able to use that redundant safety gear to save you from your own mistakes. "
Very well put!
I got an uneasy feeling that the guide may simply have managed the risk poorly. Everyone talks about the lack of VHF and compass and such. But the guide, who’s not posting on the board, might felt he had tried his own form of risk management. He had a motorized craft as a “safety boat”! What more does one need? So what if the weather got a little rough? He can wisk everyone back on dry land in no time!
In short, he may have decided he could handle additional risk because he had added safety gears. Maybe that’s why he choose NOT to cancel the trip even in the face of less than ideal weather?
Unfornately, his “safety gear” turned out to be his liability when the motor quit. Remember the constant talk about paddle-leash being an entrapment risk? The same peice of gear, when used improperly, can easily become a hazard instead. Yea, he would have been in better shape had he got an VHF. But what if the battery is less than full, resulted in reduced range?
Where did I hear this before? It takes at least TWO mistakes to make a disaster!
no lawsuit
According to the Boatertalk thread on this incident, a personal friend of the victim’s family has posted that there will be no lawsuits filed.
I don’t
normally respond to dead paddler stories but this one affects me personally.
The jerk that lead this trip made every mistake in the book and two kids are dead because of his mistakes.
1)LEAD the trip
2)have a safe guide - client ratio
3)have an alternate plan if the weather or whatever changes.
4)have a satphone/cell phone (and use it!!!)
5)TAKE A SPARE MOTOR FOR GODS SAKE!
5)the cheap bastard should have had a sweep boat with at least two strong paddlers in it.
IN THIS BUSINESS YOU DAMN SURE BETTER KNOW THE RULES OR SOMEBODY MAY GET KILLED.
I could go on but please save your sympathy for the families who lost their kids due to the criminal negligence of the fool who passed himself off as a guide.
Wow.
That was perhaps one of the coldest postings I have seen on this site. I’ll bet you probably dont’ know any of the people from that incident. I didn’t reply to this thread because of things like this.
BUT, it being that postings like the one above do actually get posted blows my mind.
I’ll go back to saying a prayer for the families and for the survivors.
Weren’t ther two victims?
and when the lawyers start dangling money it’s hard to refuse.
OTOH these boys were not supporting a family.
Not to have a vhf? Not to have the skills and tow system ready to go after the two boys? Highly questionable at best. Not standard guide protocol in any organization. Not competant, not professional. And this guy was no volunteer.
I have disagreed with you
– Last Updated: Mar-06-05 11:46 AM EST –
from time to time, but I think you are spot on. The "guide" was short skills, contingency planning, gear, and even the rudimentary routine of checking the weather.
This guy must have had no real training as an outdoor leader.
Furthermore, sat phone or cell phone be darned. If Some paid guide took my daughter out on the sea without at least two vhf's in a party of 8 boaters and she would have died......well you know. Vhf's is what the coast guard recommends for mariners, vhf is what you should have if you are taking money to lead people, or leading on or near the seaas a volunteer , or being a prudent mariner.
I have to agree
These folks weren’t in some uncharted wilderness. How can you be a guide and not have a communication device to someone who can bring help? In the end, what exactly did the guide provide during this emergency? What exactly did the guide do that lessened the risks? I don’t see much. He had a boat with a motor that failed (OK it happens) and no plan or resources beyond that.
Why didn’t the guide take a canoe or kayak himself and paddle out to retrieve the wayward canoe?
Leaving two boys out in a canoe in conditions they could not handle was criminal negligence. Can you imagine someone telling you they sat on their boat and watched your sons drift away into the darkness on a stormy night?
A lot more than one breakable
– Last Updated: Mar-07-05 1:41 PM EST –
brittle ring of defense is needed.
Quote:
He had a motorized craft as a "safety boat"! What more does one need?
A lot:
Training as a leader would have gotten the group immersion protection for every member, made the guide check the weather forecast within an hour (if not 15 minutes) of leaving, helped with the people skills to handle cancelling, made sure of a working vhf or two, ensured that flares for location were on hand, and made sure of more than one mobile boat with a competant mariner for expected conditions who could tow (can't do it every time but these condiditons were expected).
Canoes on the ocean (without big time float bags)?? Canoes (with any skill level) on the ocean??? Cotton on the paddlers in water temps under 70??? Cell phone as primary rescue call device????? No flares on a guide???? The list is huge!
Skills, thought, gear, technology (motors communications etc.), constitute multiple rings of defense. True redundancy.
Boat motor failure…
“He had a boat with a motor that failed (OK it happens) and no plan or resources beyond that.”
The boat motor seems to have been another avoidable problem that plagued this group. According to the Atlanta Journal Constitution interview with one of the female clients posted above, “…the motor on the boat still wouldn’t work,” she said. “We were pulling a kayak behind the boat and the rope had gotten tangled in the props and had stripped the gears.”
Also, from the same interview, she says:
“She told him she was going to go ahead on to Coon Island, which was just over a mile away. She reached the island in about a half-hour.”
Although she apparently was an “experienced” kayaker, I would question letting her paddle a mile away from the group in those deteriorating conditions.
Some thoughts, no intent to blame
I don’t intend to say if they were in kayaks they would still be with us but making a general observation or opinion about rental canoes.
I apologize to the experienced canoist but I find it totally amazing that guides, rental companies, park services etc. rent or use canoes and kayaks for that matter in open water areas knowing how the conditions can get in just a few short moments.
Thats all it takes in Florida, out of the blue a squall with 30-50 mile an hour winds and rain can and will pope up out of the everglades or mid Florida with little notice producing fast rolling waves and wind chop out powering strong paddlers let alone the unskilled. Not to mention cold fronts as is probably the case here.
How often do we see Mr. and Mrs Joe Average out in a canoe for the first time and can’t even begin to keep it tracking going in any particular direction in the best of conditions.
I do believe a 17’ foot canoe is seaworthy with flotation bags, with deck covers and a full time bailer with experienced paddlers but not without any of the above in open water.
Brian
SoFlo
Safety committee. Safety rules. The law.
Another question I have about this incident is about the existence of a safety committee and written safety rules for specific activities.
Any organization that leads such trips should have a safety committee of independent outsiders who meet to review the activities of the organization. An important job of the safety committee is to review the written safety rules of the group.
I strongly question the professionalism of any outdoor adventure organization nowadays that lacks a safety committee and lacks written safety rules.
I think there should be a law suit here, because the fear of law suits encourages proper professional practices that protect children.
Criminal sanctions also deter wrongdoing that is harmful to children. I’m starting to think that the leader of this trip might be liable for criminally negligent homicide. This is because he had a duty to carry out certain routine safety procedures that are known to leaders in the outdoor adventure profession and failed to carry them out.
Does anyone know if there will be a report on this incident in Sea Kayaker magazine, even though a canoe was involved?
SETTING THE RECORD STRAIGHT
– Last Updated: Mar-09-05 8:22 AM EST –
It is now 6:00 in the morning. I have just finished reading every message submitted regarding the tragic events that occurred in Florida over a week ago.
Clearly, there has been a tremendous amount of speculation about the conditions surrounding these tragic events. The purpose of this statement is to not only set the record straight, but to put further doubts to rest.
Only 2 short years ago was I myself a student at this high school in Rome, Ga. In fact, I have known the leader of this trip for some time. My soccer coach for 4 years and a close family friend for as long as I can remember, "Meester" (as his students affectionately call him), is truly one-of-a-kind. Not only do I know him personally, but many of my friends have had the pleasure of taking one of his Orr-Trek trips. For this reason, I feel that it is my responsibility, no, my obligation to set the record straight.
Upon receiving a phone call informing him of the events taking place, my father immediately tracked down small private plane and headed for the coast of Florida. He, along with a small number of faculty members from our school, arrived even before the boys' own families.
The entire group had access to only one phone; little to no cell phone service was available. It was nearly 10 hours after his departure when I first heard from my father.
I wasn't sure what I thought, or hoped, he would say first, but what I heard, to say the least, was completely unexpected. "Meester did absolutely everything he could do for those boys. He paddled in extremely dangerous conditions for nearly 4 hours before being pulled out of the water by the Coast Guard. Baby, he just did everything he could."
To clarify misunderstood portions of the AJC article, Meester DID NOT sit back until the boys' light faded away. This statement was made by a student whose was in one of the canoes that had been tied together. At that point, Meester along with another experienced kayaker had been looking for quite some time.
Before those critical of this leader's decisions write me off as being blinded by my personal loyalty and love for this man, there is something else you must know: The reason my Dad flew to Florida that Sunday afternoon wasn't for Meester. It was for his best friend, the father of one of the now-desceased boys.
I have read all of your comments as well as nearly every article written in response to this tragedy. If anything is to be learned from this ordeal, it should be this: The only thing that Meester is more passionate about than leading these trips is sharing his passion with his students. So, the question here should'nt be, "How could this have been prevented?", rather, "Where do we go from here?". Having had the priveledge of knowing one of these boys personally, I feel certain that this is what he would have wanted.
At the memorial service for Clay (one of the boys) last Friday, nearly every member of our school and our community packed into our small school chapel tp both mourn our tragic loss and to celebrate his wonderful memory. In case you were wondering, Meester did this sitting right beside Clay's family. They, nor Clay, would have wanted it any other way.
Thank you for your post
Very well put and I am sorry for your’s, your friend’s, the school’s and the community’s loss.
Determined to learn will have its time
This is why I do not respond immediately following an accident, espcecially one with loss of life. I am determined to learn from what goes well as well as what has not. However, the pain, from the event itself, and the likelihood of distortions, jumping to conclusions, and second guessing has a very destructive effect on the participants and the victim’s families.
There will be a time and place to carefully, objectively, and accurately review the sequence of events so that we all may learn from this. Although much can be learned from accidents, as much if not more can be learned from near misses as well as normal everyday situations. The period immediately after an acccident may actually be one of the least productive times to learn things as there is a great deal of grief and social pressure to resolve the matter in a certain way. I am determined to not be harmful, and hopefully I have not been in this reply.
the weather forcast was correct
as it usually is. This was a lack of judgement, not an unavoidable accident.
Not too long ago, someone posted a question as to how many p.netters had lost a kayak and there were some responses, none of which could be blamed on an “act of god”.
I consider good judgement the most important skill of all, the one which will keep you from harms way more than any of the others. I don’t care if you can roll continuously for 10 minutes in a gale and come up ready to paddle, if you have bad judgement, you are un skilled.
Time and place
The time and place for safety related discussions is NOW - and ALWAYS.
Such discussions logically occur around tragic events. Sensitivity is one thing, but using that as a reason to limit discussion on an open paddling discussion board is another entirely.
NOTHING on these message threads - speculative or not - is really inappropriate. We are talking among paddling peers - not to the friends and family of the boys (all of whom I suspect would completely understand the thoughts that all have posted here).
The post above is obviously heartfelt - and reminds us these are real people with a real loss to deal with. They all know and love each other. They all like the teacher. The teacher obviously loves his students and the outdoors.
All that has never been in question. Support of that kind is always nice to see, but isn’t really “setting the record straight”. It doesn’t change the nature of what happened or provide any reason not to think about and discuss the events - even without really knowing what happened. Only the lost boys can really tell us that. On that level we’ll never know, as is usually the case with such tragic events.
Can’t we keep their spirits in our hearts - and the full range possible actions that occurred in our minds and messages at the same time? We will learn more and share more lifesaving info if we do, even if only through conjecture and no real solid info.
Some comments made may not apply to what happened in this exact situation, but they still touch upon valid safety concerns. Such discussions should be encouraged, not be seen as disrespectful.
Occasionally a post will target an individual and may seem out of line, but others are always quick to point them out and restore balance.
In other words, I’m more concerned about people being hurt by cold water/weather than by words.
Have upi ex[erienced this yourself
Greyak,
I value your opinions allot on this forum. Yet I wonder have you experienced this kind of speculation, second guessing, jumping to conclusions personally, I have it was sometimes well intended but regardless I felt like and in some ways was just an object to those people.
Just consider I am not saying my view and yours are necessarily diametrically opposed and that I don’t see allot of value in your ideas OK? Asking you consider spending a week pretending it has just happened to you and report back with your insights.
Couldn’t learn from this accident this way too and not potentially hurt the people involved and give them a week or two to get a grip?
Thansk for listening, I will keep my ears open to your ideas too!