I'd like to move my seatpan forward about 1".
Move is motivated by two things:
1. Seat is too far aft in relation to the coaming opening. Looking for a little more clearance behind my back for doing layback (going from "not gonna happen" to "somewhat doable with very arched back" - it will never be great for this).
2. Shift trim forward a bit. Trim is not bad as is, but is looking more stern down as I've lost weight. My Q700 is the 2nd generation with the cockpit 8" aft of original placement and 3" aft of currently made position - so I am not concerned with going too far forward for trim, tracking, or weatherhelm!
What I'm looking for here is tips and encouragement on doing this. The seat is in there very solid and I am hesitant to mess with it. Want to keep it intact, not damage hull, and simply reglue it forward. I would like some reassurance it can be done easily and without major complication by anyone who has moved theirs. Also what to re-attach with.
Yes, this has been covered before. I have searched archives and read: http://www.paddling.net/message/showThread.html?fid=advice&tid=83153
Just looking for other input/updates/elaboration/hand holding.
Encouragement ; go for it
Tips; If you are the type to over think /over analyze things to minutia (sp?) doing this will open a real can of worms. The seatpan itself will pop easier than you thought it would but that is just the start of things.
Just a warning, once you start moving things around you will probably want to try moving the seat way forward too. Place some tape in the boat with marks on it and paddle in your normal conditions....slide seat around as much as possible for each condition. Nice to have someone 'eyeball' the boat as you paddle by but this is not really going to matter as much as seat of the pants feel and GPS type data.
You will now be in the realm of designers and builders who have to do this type of stuff all the time. Moving the seat around can change the boats handling as well as speed. Some characteristics might immediately feel great and make you wonder why the seat was not put there in the first place....
Examples of this would be moving it back and now feeling like the bow could ride over anything, or moving it way forward and having the boat feel way faster and even react better to edging and leaned turns.... The can of worms part is getting it as right a poss. while balancing all the +s / -s for the fore and aft part, then you gotta get it in there straight, centered and not twisted.
The more you paddle with seat in different positions the narrower the sweet spot will become.
A good way to go is to look for the point where you can sprint the boat fastest then check your race pace and cruising speeds in this position. Factoring any possible weird handling quirks that might be present such as the stern swinging around too fast, weather cocking etc.
From this point gradually move the seat back. You will probably notice your race pace and cruising speed will be a bit higher from the top speed sprint position. Double check your top sprint speed as you move seat back too. Move seat back 'till your race / cruising speeds start to fall off. Fine tune the race pace/cruising speed : sprint speed rations to suit your tastes.
Cautions
Thanks Pat! Cautions understood. I do over-think - but on this particular boat I can err pretty far forward and still have it paddle well.
A simple cockpit fit compromise should also yield a little more speed. Maybe not optimal speed - but it handles so well now in all regards that I have a huge margin for any change in tracking/turning/weathercocking.
Getting the pan out is my main worry. QCC uses some VERY serious adhesives. Seat is not hung and has long flanges fore and aft that are glued to the hull it is also glued at the sides along the full length of the seat posts, which are separate parts (integral to coaming). I’d like to get it out intact and re-attach the same way.
Once it’s out I’ll regroup and see what else is possible. I wouldn’t mind raising it 1/2" or so either - but not a priority. I have plenty of foam to fill in underneath if needed. The foam could solve several issues that might come up if it proves to be less than a simple move. If I really screw up (assuming seat not hull!) I can always do a custom minicell seat.
Cautious is good.
I was attempting to slide a piece of flat 1 inch webbing under the seat of my 500 (to anchor a thigh pad) and I could not get a thin shim under the pan. I agree that QCC seems to have locked the pan to the hull like a limpet. Good luck in your attempts!
Jim
I’m going to try minicell & velcro
I’ve already carved a foam seat and am putting velcro strips on the bottom so that I can play around with the trim. I should be getting my new IR backband from fedex tomorrow and I’ll be trying it all out on Tuesday in the pool.
You could talk to Phil
And see what type adhesive they use they find a solvent like “goof-off” that will soften it.
Good luck
Randy
ITW Plexus
adhesive is very tenacious. Data sheet suggests “scraping and solvent wipe” to remove residue.
Call Phil.
Jim
Left field suggestion…
I don't know if this is even possible but I'll offer it as a suggestion Kris, especially since you've been so willing to help me work on "fixing" my skeg.
Bear with me on my description/suggestion....
I noticed on both my 500 and now my 700 that backband can be installed two ways. You can install it with the straps on the "outside" of the seat pillars (between the pillars and the inside of the hull) or on the "inside" of the pillars (straps actually touch your sides. With hip pads installed, you would have to cut a notch for the straps to run through). I noticed when installing my backband that when I installed the backband "inside" the pillars, I had actually shifted forward about an inch because of the geometry of the straps not getting caught on the back edge of the seat pillars. Furthermore, I could incrementally slide even further forward by tightening the rachets. With my physical shape, I liked the band installed like this but since I was sitting forward (with my long legs), I could not pull my knees up out of the cockpit but would have to slide back on the rear deck to get out, then bend my knees. I believe this setup would give you the 1 inch or possibly more that you're looking for without having to cut on your kayak. It would move you further forward on the pan and help with those layback rolls too.
I have my backband on the outside of the pillars because I found with it on the inside I was sitting too far forward. I hope this is understandable, or maybe I'm as "clear as mud", as I tell my wife sometimes.
If my rambling is not understandable, but you want to know more, email me your phone number and I'll call you and try to explain. Or I can go outside and reinstall my backband the way I'm describing , take a digital photo and email it to you.
Just trying to help!!
Tripp
Was going to mention Plexus before.
“The seat coming off easier than you might think.” Applys to most other adhesives besides Plexus types. Even epoxys.
Yep, this stuff is unbelieveable tough and tenatious… if that is what they are using forget about getting it off without either trashing the seat or pulling some hull up with it. Ever look inside a jet ski ? See how the motor mounts are just bonded to hull ? Plexus. It CANNOT be chisled off. Best thing to use for bonding hull and deck though.
Good luck.
related Q?
With this talk of seat removal,
Do you guys with QCC’s find that water can get
under you seat pan? In other words is there a complete seal to the hull, or should there be a small gap? Just wondering because my recently purchased used 400 lets water under the seat and it takes a while to drain out when put on it’s side. No biggy, but I just thought it may be a good idea to seal it off with some goo,etc., That or drill a drain hole, I just don’t want anything ferminting under my seat.
There was a water stain in the rear compartment, still damp when I got it. Musta been stored with the hatchcover on tight?
Greyak, Could you make a new seat of minicell that would form to your old seat, yet move ya forward/higher enough? Might be tricky, just shape the block to fit in the seat, with extra foam up front, then cut it for your seat. A reversable mod.
Water Under the Seat Pan
In most kayaks this seems to be a common area for water to collect and remain, particularly when practicing wet exits and rolling-very difficult to empty completely solo. As a former Brit boat owner, I don’t understand why more manufacturers don’t simply angle the rear bulkhead. In my Explorer, a simple flip and tip would drain out darn near every drop-that simple. While they’re at it in the Q-Tip, they could lower the rear deck and coaming about two inches to allow for easy layback rolls…
Mine drains well
Open (off hull at all four corners and a drain hole dead center. Some water can remain under there (as I just found when I cracked the seat loose. A bit grungy underneath.
The foam over existing seat is interesting idea - sort of same shape floated above and forward with the foam filling inbetween. Could work nicely - but would require patient carving and I am looking for a quick rip and stick operation. I also like the smooth hard seatpan for doing any distance paddling.
Perfectly clear - but won’t do it
When I first replaced the Rapid Pulse seat and put in a back band I had the straps inside - and used the existing holes.
After a bit I wanted the band lower and the straps more straight/horizontal and drilled new holes a bit lower mid-post. Put the straps outside.
I cannot simply ratchet forward as it pushes me up foward on the seat pan. Front edge presses into backs of my thighs a little and messes with circulation and rotation. Pan is just right as long as I’m actually in it. It’s got to move.
Don’t forget pics
when finished. I dig watching your mod progress.
Good luck!
Seat is out - easy 5 minute job
Used 1" wood chisel. Zero damage to lamination of hull or seat.
Cracked side hangers first (light mallet taps - little at a time), then front flange. Rear flange took the longest as there is no room for the mallet and I had to push/pry with the chisel. Prying against the hull layup was a little unnerving- but I was nowhere near to damaging it. Much heavier than the seat pan.
That glue is indeed crazy tough, but it seems I went around it. Front glue stayed on flange and parted clean from hull, aft stayed on hull and came off flange. Easy to pop off remaining glue from both with the chisel. A little clean up, some light sanding, and it will be ready to re-attach.
Now, what to do with it, and the slightly dangling seat posts. That will depend on the final seat position. How far forward? Raised or not?
Option 1: Just Move a bit forward and re-glue. Epoxy putty the posts to deck as they will not really hit sides of seat anymore if I go more than an inch - and I assume there is some structural integrity gained here. This was all I wanted, but now that it’s out…
Option 2: Same as above but add a layer of 1/2" minicell floor mat under seat pan, raising and moving forward.
Option 3: Rails for adjustability - overkill for my purposes I think.
Option 4: A more sculpted minicell seat.
Option 5: Just use the 1/2" floor mat material and not be limited to the seat pan at all. Simple foam pad on the bottom. Greenlanders are speaking to me here. It’s pretty tough foam (same as I’ve had for foot brace surface for over a year now) and surface is finished so it’s smooth enough to rotate on - but textured enough not to slip around. If this is reasonably comfortable I could leave it like this and make a final decision after playing with sitting positions a while. Need something workable for races on 5th & 6th though…
Side note - being more forward of the seat posts I may need to look at some hip padding now too. Again, depends on how far forward.
All that for tomorrow - outside where I can sit in it - and drop it in the canal if wet tests are needed. Forecast is for rain. Woohoo!
K1 Racing Seat
Kris,
I know that racing is not your main purpose, but a racing seat is unbeatable for confort, powerful stroke, and free adjustment.
This is one of many available:
(Remember that SRS also offers a low seat with adjustment)
http://www.simonriversports.com/english/products/accessories/seat.html
Regards,
Iceman
Guess the glue wasn’t
that great after all, was it. I’m getting a little skeptical about whatever they use in these things. Maybe it holds for awhile but exposure to the elements (hull expansion/contraction, etc.) weakens the bond over time.
I once tried attaching accessories with epoxy in mine and they didn’t hold very well at all. May depend on what type of resin is used in the boat, as to what will really stick to it. Dunno.
Mike
No, trust me - the glue was solid
It would have held for another hundred years or so as the the glass and Kevlar laminates slowly broke down around it!
All the glue is still intact and like new. I’m pretty it was a thin layer of resin that parted - No pulled weave on the hull at all (Kevlar helped here) - but there is a little glass fiber exposed on the seat flanges.
?
Gotta be far more likely for the glue to separate from the resin rather than the resin from more resin. At least it better be.
I don't doubt that the glue itself is quite an impervious mass, but that's not its only responsibility.
Mike
It not careful…
…you will destroy the seat and possibly damage the hull. It’s that strong.