It is! I own the first one made
by Stoddard Aerospace. Four years of abuse. I think the point is that most people are not going to experience a point impact like a lead shot hammer blow on a daily basis! Certainly my 16 has had the crap beat out of it in rock gardens etc. These lay-ups are crazy strong…probably overbuilt. It is the strongest kayak I have owned.
But, I believe even lay-ups that may not be that tough are still very tough. NDK’s and Valleys as well as P&H etc. seem really good. Impex does nice work as well. My point is that composites are tougher than most realize. Non-informed folk focus on gel-coat issues. Gel coat is a non-structural cosmetic egg shell…
composites are tougher than most realize
– Last Updated: Nov-14-07 9:57 PM EST –
Most times I've been playing in rocks nearly all the boats have been composite. I've been pretty impressed with the impacts sustained without structural damage. When there is serious damage it can usually be field repaired enough to paddle home.
Even the Explorer 'destroyed' in the infamous 5* training out of MIKCo has been repaired and is for sale.
All that being said, the current Necky layups are awesome...
Yep
Director of Watercraft at Necky lost three Chatham’s of his truck rack at 70mph on I-5 North of Bellingham. Total freak show display…boats were superficially scarred up and required minor repairs. Could have paddled them.
This after the guy took a lot of ribbing for his fluffy store bought rack. (which failed apparently)
My Romany, and Nordkapps took a lot of abuse over the years as well. Lots of Gel coat issues, etc., needed a few repairs here and there, but damn tough boats.
shame shame shame on many
and me too but i’ve seen the light with the Tempest series…we’ve got American workers making them, American’s who actually live, pay taxes, raise kids and so on making one of the greatest kayaks ever designed. If that is the type of kayak you are wanting there is no reason to give up American values—i.e. dollars—to the British.
and the rumors are that WS will soon introduce another kayak that is just as good if not better.
Now before you flame me I’ve already admitted to having given the Brits money for kayaks-quite a lot of money and the Tempest will not be for everyone but most of the people who suck up to the Romany and Explorer are really caught up in some fantasy…which is to say that Freya does look hot in her Explorer…the reality is another matter.
Perhaps a disquieting word, but…
I am reminded of the video of the guy throwing and pounding on a SOF boat to show how tough it was. Unless you know the actual forces involved, all these war stories are really meaningless as measures of how tough this or that might be. You can dump a motorcycle at 70 and walk away with superficial injuries and you can fall off a foot stool and die. Then again, the opposite might happen.
Didn’t I see Jeff Allen in TITS2 patching a few holes in an Explorer? Isn’t that an Explorer with its deck broken off the hull in Southern Exposure? And, BTW, a friend holed an Explorer just paddling along and running up on a rock. Does any of this mean they are not tough boats. No. Do the opposite stories mean they are tougher than other boats and maybe even “bulletproof”. No.
Until there are objective tests run of the various laminates being used, everyone is whistling in the dark about their respective strengths and weaknesses. I thought the rationale for the laminate that NDK uses was not that it made a super tough boat, but rather they were willing to trade ultimate strength for more localized damage that was easier to fix in the field. A very reasonable design decision it seems to me given the boat’s intended use. Anyway, that in turn means they should not be as tough as boats made of stronger laminate which will likely fail under higher loads, but the damage will likely be over a greater area. A report on the role of cognitive dissonance in P.net posting would be interesting reading.
easier to fix in the field
My understanding is that the balance of toughness and field repairability is central to Nigel Dennis’ reasoning.
Of course, duct tape, float bags, etc… will usually work for any layup boat to get it back home.
Part of the 4 Star kit is the materials necessary to repair a boat at sea.
I disagree
– Last Updated: Nov-15-07 9:32 AM EST –
Some of the posters like myself above may have been using these "war stories" as an example of the most extreme forces. You're not really trying to say there is nothing to be gleaned from those stories, are you? If so, I can tell you my explorer has withstood 5 seasons of cobble surf landings, shoring the boat fully laden, 't' rescues with loaded and unloaded boats, and two rather harrowing encounters with sunken boulders in surf. I think that's as real-world as you're going to get.
Sorry eel, but
your post doesn’t make sense. I get the real world bit, but to suggest that a tougher laminate in the lab, which also is a tougher laminate in the real world is somehow less field repairable is simply inaccurate. For example, there’s nothing less field repairable about an advanced, infused, cored, glass / carbon lay-up. Absolutely nothing.
I can tell you that lay-ups go through all kinds of testing, both real world destructive (test to try to break it), and lab.
Strength and toughness are terms tossed around a lot, but what do they mean. Kevlar for example is very strong in tension, but weak in compression. Certainly a very stiff, cored, race boat with a light lay-up will be sophisticated, yet more fragile.
The aircraft that you will fly on in the future will be composite skinned.
well (and request to flatpick)
with the drop in the value of the US dollar verses the British pound and the Eurodollar, British boats may well be beyond the price range of most of us soon. I own a RM T-170 and have heard that the design is based on the NDK explorer–so I’m asking flatpick who posts here and is the designer of the Tempest line to confirm or deny that rumor.
Martin and Explorer LV
We tried with mine a couple of summers ago - he wasn’t making it thru the cockpit. The combo of extra small opening and low deck was too much.
That said, the Force 3 thigh braces run well back but rise to a higher deck.
Don’t disagree
I was repeating the design goals/claims for the type of layup NDK uses that I had heard from those who should know what NDK is about. Not having seen enough boats of the different layups get damaged, I have no personal opinion on field repair differences or even whether the boats fail differently for that matter as many say they do.
I agree strength and toughness are terms that get used without definition of what they mean, I agree that the toughest laminates in the lab are likely to be toughest in real world assuming the lab tests accurately the types of forces experienced in the real world, and I assume there is a lot of work done in the lab testing them. Unfortunately that information is not widely disseminated so the same old stuff get said and said and said. If the old ways are always the best ways, we would all be paddling SOF boats.
I love straw men
They’re so darn flammable.
and
…still using those silly rubber hatch covers.
Makes sense
flatpick - designer?
Flatpick is the designer of the Tempest series of kayaks?
It a nice line and any decent paddler can paddle that boat in any British boat conditions.
Another sleeper of a kayak is the Daggar Meridien. Superb kayak as well as fit and finish. No longer made. Great seat, thigh bracing and attention to detail.
Yep, so the moral of the story
is there are plenty of good, well built, kayaks for consumers to choose from whether they be built in the US, or abroad. Hard to go wrong really.
Bigger question after the sometimes intense focus on boats and gear is??
What’s your next big adventure?
well now…
the Tempest series was designed to ‘fit in’ with the Explorer,Rom16,Millenium,Gulfstream…etc.
It WAS NOT designed ‘based’ on any one model but it was designed to accomplish what many designs do well. Our goal criteria was to build a boat capable of paddling rough stuff and still be quite user-friendly. Soooo many of the boats up to this point were IMO, too specialized to fit the general paddling public. we wanted the Tempest family to appeal to asspired beginners and experts alike, in 3 sizes. I think we came pretty close. 
At the time we designed her, I owned a pretty sizeable retail shop, taught and guided kayak adventures and had access to many boats. We decided what we liked and what we didn’t about every boat we could get our hands on. Then we figured out what the end product should be.
We had DH and ND both accuse us of ripping off their designs. flip a Tempest over next to a EXplorer or Gulfstream and tell me they’re the same! Paddle each and tell me they’re the same!
Ford, Chevy, Dodge, Toyota…whatever floats your boat. they’re all different and fit seperate needs.
Glad you like your Explorers and Tempests and whatevers! Important thing is to paddle often and enjoy your ride.
even if it isn’t made in the USA! heehee
btw- Jay- the new WS Zephyr IS based on the ol’ Meridian. Based on and heavily tweaked. some will prefer the original and some will like the new school. search the archives for more info on this boat.
steve
btw
hrere’s a story about the T design process that was written a while ago and archived.
http://tinyurl.com/2ya85n
steve
that’s very cool steve
thanks.
Zephyr looks fun
Good luck with that boat. I think it will be fun and I look forward to paddling one. My kind of boat…