"asspired beginners"
Steve- not making fun of your English but that misspelling is the single funniest thing I’ve read here in a long time.
and funnier still, there is a kernel of truth in the word you created - there is a design trend, especially in North America, home of the supersized, to make wider, bigger boats to “inspire” wider bigger, um, rumps, to sit in a kayak.
Priceless, thank you. Really.
Good Conversations
about the Tempest, NDK, Gulfstream, Meridian, etc.
I paddled a Necky Chatham 16. Though a narrow kayak, VERY much liked its stability, turning, looks. The redesigned Gulfstream is also VERY nice; tweaked just in the right places!
Regarding the Dagger Meridian (which is a very nice boat, overall), I held onto my Dagger Latitude. Knock the integral rudder all you want, but I like it (as long as I don’t smack it on a rock).
NOT a British design, the Latitude is a much better kayak than the bigger Sitka.
Not many kayaks paddle like the NDK Explorer. Probably the Romany, Gulfstream and Chatham 16 are quite similar. SEDA has their new Ikimmu (or whatever) which looks great! Some other American/Canadian boats look nice, too. Blah…
Glenn
The Z
Do I really have to wait until May?
:
huh???
that’s not how you spell it???
I used to have a spell checker that did web page replies but not no more.
oilwell…glad you liked!
really.
steve
You do what you want with your $$$
I’ve bought 3 American kayaks already (still have 2 of them). That’s not the point. The T165 handles GREAT, and I am keeping it. It’s just not quite big enough for what I need sometimes. When I say “big enough” I mean cargo space, not cockpit fit. Which I already explained.
That’s still not the point. I will spend my money on items that best fit my needs regardless of where they are made. That goes for everything, not just kayaks or autos. So much of the stuff that the “buy American” yellers tout is made in other countries, anyway!
Your type of comment belongs in B&B, not here where we are discussing paddling-related merits and downsides. You won’t get a flame from me because I applaud your buying what YOU believe is best. Just have the courtesy to allow the rest of us the same open-mindedness.
That is the question
The gear is the means to an end, not an end in itself.
NPR
NPR recently had a program discussing the US auto industry that was very interesting. They discussed the quality of the new American cars. The quality has risen to the point where they are quite competitive with the import market in over all quality. The problem is that it will take a generation for people to change their perception and buy into the concept of a non import being well made. It may take a while for the US kayak market to catch on that we have some pretty good boats. It sounds like it’s beginning to happen.
Rephrase
Not quality, well yes, but overall performance and quality.
Huh ??
Hey, what wrong with my Romany. She’s a bit worn and battered, but she still floats . .
cheers,
Wildwater-- your integral rudder comment
Andrew McCauley chose a kayak to do the Tasman in with integral rudder…that tells me that integral rudders are a viable option. Currently I think only two manuf’s are offering such-Mirage in AUS and Barton. I’ve spent a little over a hundred miles in a 580 now and can tell you that to me the advantages outweigh the dissadvantages-but it depends on what type of paddling you’re involved in.
It would be nice—but highly doubtful—if WS offered the new Zephyr with the choice of integral rudder or not (since it is based on the Meridian).
What I Like About Integral
I chose my Latitude years ago when I was just starting kayaking. The Latitude is a nice kayak for going fast enough and knee turns like a dream…
Anyway, lots of larger ladies were purchasing this kayak here in Michigan to take down wider, but sometimes wood-filled, rivers here in Michigan (please save Michigan’s economy BTW ;)).
Note: I realize rivers aren’t the intended use for sea kayaks. Anyway, the integral rudders took a lot of abuse from these gals and kept working fine.
What I like about this design is that the footpegs are solid and the rudder is used by pushing the TOP of the footbrace forward. So, the footpegs are solid even when using the rudder (many newer boats use this on their ruddered kayaks).
Also, the rudder can be locked into the neutral, straight position with a control behind the cockpit.
The complaints about this rudder (I’d like to hear more of these complaints, please) include the fact that it doesn’t reach beneath the normal keel-line. Essentially, it’s just an extention of the stern which can be moved just like a regular rudder can, but with solid footpegs.
Any comments would be appreciated. I’ve SOLD many kayaks, but had BIG money in this one, so never sold it. I’m glad I kept it.
Glenn
I understand why you didn’t sell it
and I’d love to add a Meridian to the fold.
In the Mirage you have several size choices for the rudder, one of which sticks down many inches-cant remember exactly how far…this may give you and idea:
http://outdoors.webshots.com/photo/2877253270084634827llrsaT
Barton’s group I think is now making an integral with an extenions-they should have looked at the Mirage series first!
With the long rudder the Mirage will literally spin on a dime, with the flush integral it’s not nearly so fast…the Mirage rudder is very robust-read heavy in the hand and the way its mounted means it can take quite a blow…but since its composite you could field repair when needed.
I’ve talked about integrals before-if you choose the flush length one, when you let it go neutral in position you dont have a rudder-simple. Now imgagine a kayak with an integral AND a drop down skeg…cat’s meow.
Kayak buyers - generations
– Last Updated: Nov-16-07 10:20 AM EST –
We haven't been doing serious sea kayaking very long compared to many on this board - 6 or maybe 7 summers with sea kayaks. The summer before was 13 ft transition boats, and rec boats on inappropriate salt water paddles before that.
However, we have seen significant changes in the paddlers both where we vacation in Maine and inland at home. Overall, we've seen a much higher proportion of long boaters in both locations that are doing things like pursuing rolls, or Greenland skills etc. The boats we see in a group of paddlers are changing to match those habits, with boats like the Tempests and Force series being a real presence.
Point being - this change in paddlers' habits has pushed manufacturers to move beyond the older hard-tracking, high decked North American designs because the off-balance stuff is much harder than in the so-called Brit style boats. The Explorer could only seem to dominate for a time because the NA designers hadn't come out with a boat that behaved like that - yet.
I went thru a huge jump in skills development just by switching from the CD Squall to the Explorer LV. I still remember the first time I took the LV out for roll practice - I got three in a row for the first time ever, and my percentage jumped from 33% to 80%. This wasn't romance - it was the boat.
As far as generational impact goes, the boomer paddlers who have the funds to change their loyalties have been very willing to do so. It just required that the boats be available to give them a real choice.
The view is even getting better for average sized women like myself. When the Explorer LV first came out, oversize hull volume and all, it had virtually no competition for a boat that was protective of newbies, aided skills development AND had a good cockpit fit for someone my size. Happily, that has changed and, were I to be purchasing the boat now, I'd have more to choose from. Not as much as an average sized male, but any improvement is good.
Comments on the Meridian
I’ve had a Meridian in Kevlar for not quite a year now. The Explorer that I’ve had for about the same amount of time has been my main boat, however, so my seat time in the Dagger is limited.
I find it a quick, easy turning boat, reasonably fast for a shorter boat. That said, it really needs the skeg to go straight - that or constant attention from the paddler. Just a smidge of skeg will do the job.
Working for a kayak outfit this summer, I got to paddle a Romany a few times. For me, that boat has a better combination of turning and tracking - a fantastic combination, actually. I lined the two boats up on the ground, looking for what made so much difference. They have essentially the same length overall, and similar rocker, if I remember right.
The differences were three:
- A slight V to the Romany hull, where the Meridian is flat (well, rounded) underneath.
- The keel line both bow and stern are a bit more pinched on the Romany (I would not be surprised if this gives the Meridian more speed).
- The coaming and seat in the Romany are aft a good 4" compared to the Meridian. The Dagger acts bow heavy, though I’ve had limited success trying to trim it out with weight in the back hatch - you’d think that would do it, but the weight balance is not the whole story, I find.
Flatpick, if you can tune in just a bit more tracking in the Zephyr, it should be a great boat.
Alan
well now…
- A slight V to the Romany hull, where the Meridian is flat (well, rounded) underneath.
DONE- this was a big tweak on the original. less skid and better directional control.
- The keel line both bow and stern are a bit more pinched on the Romany (I would not be surprised if this gives the Meridian more speed).
yep and we left the bow/stern fullness alone. this is also a contributer to broaching. (the pinch)
- The coaming and seat in the Romany are aft a good 4" compared to the Meridian.
DONE- we balanced out the center of bouyancy and re-positioned the seat/cockpit. still not as far aft as a ROM.
Flatpick, if you can tune in just a bit more tracking in the Zephyr, it should be a great boat.
some will like it…some NOT. loosey-goosey can be a good thing but having ‘control’ of the looseness is even better!
try it you may like. should hit the streets soon!
steve
Bowler’s comments
It’s interesting and a bit ironic that Bowler1’s initial post and comments about the only two negatives he finds with the Explorer are the resons it handles in the super friendly manner which it does. In a rough sea a weighty tank of a boat with a slow hull speed is actually going to feel more solid and stable than a light super responsive active one. I mean these comments as acolades.
Nigel proved to the kayak world that large initial stability is a good trade overall. And it’s weight which is a by-product of (his) construction also is an asset on the water in many cases.
A 150 lb kayak is just not going to throw you around in chop like a 35 lb one and will be less demanding of the paddler.
Bingo!
I must say it took, in fact it is still taking, time to get my head around a 25# SOF in wind and waves. However, to the extent I have, I must say paddling a boat that is simply an extension of yourself is really a wonderous experience once the terror wears off. Certainly doesn’t hurt you paddling ability either when you go back to kayaks you “sit” in.
Kayak weights
– Last Updated: Nov-19-07 7:31 PM EST –
"In a rough sea a weighty tank of a boat with a slow hull speed is actually going to feel more solid and stable than a light super responsive active one."
The NDK boats might be heavier than other fiberglas boats but by at-most 10lbs (eg, 60lb versus 50lb). Typically, the difference is much less than 10lbs. An even smaller amount of this difference is found at the ends of the kayak where the weight has even less effect.
I suspect that this little bit of extra weight would have no measureable effect on speed or stability.
The NDK boats get "slammed" for their weight but they really only weigh a bit more than comparable boats.
NDK boats
– Last Updated: Nov-16-07 12:35 PM EST –
The NDK boats arrived at the right time and captured the attention of influential people (eg, instructors) at a crucial (early) time in the growth of the sport. It appears that NDK also sponsored the right people at the right time.
Now that this mind-set has been established, it would be hard to change it.
Things might have worked out differently if there were more boats like the Chatham. Avocet, Tempest at the same time the Romany/Explorer were introduced.
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I think people obsess to much about getting the "perfect boat", probably, because buying stuff is easy. Get a decent boat (and there are many of them) and spend the time learning how to paddle it really well.
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"some will like it...some NOT. loosey-goosey can be a good thing but having 'control' of the looseness is even better!"
Yes. It would be quite boring if every body liked the same boat! I think the "control of the looseness" is a important property of a "true" sea kayak (the "magic" of edged turns).
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Flatpick's comment about the Tempest design: "We had DH and ND both accuse us of ripping off their designs. flip a Tempest over next to a EXplorer or Gulfstream and tell me they're the same! Paddle each and tell me they're the same!"
It's surprising that ND made that comment concidering how very unique the hull shape of the Romany/Explorer is! DH, of course, would concider -any- non-DH kayak a "rip off"!
initial stability is a good trade
– Last Updated: Nov-17-07 9:33 AM EST –
I believe that among the greatest marvels of the Romany and Explorer is that while having very high initial stability and very solid secondary they are very responsivie boats.
I have yet to be in any other sea kayak that is as reassurring as a Romany while being so easy to throw around and is confidence inspiring in tidal races, eddylines, and surf.
My Nordkapp LV is a blast to paddle, but it feels much more demanding of me as a paddler than my Romany.
The Romany and Explorer hit these shores at a good time and quickly engaged influential coaches and paddlers. Now there are many more models available which are supportive of aggressive paddling, yet these two NDK boats still hold their own for being as capable as any.