Aft of the…
Jed,
Your Romany is great! Your Romany is perfect, yeah, that's the story - it arrived as if made by Canadians. So perfect...
Seriously, you in your Romany greatly contributed to my getting a Romany.
-Jim
Very Cool!
Steve, thank you for the detailed description of the changes made to the Meridian in making the Zephyr.
A Meridian SK/S was the first boat I paddled that felt ‘sweet.’ I love my Romany. A tweaked Meridian should be very nice indeed.
That’s “why” they are responsive.
There's a connection. The same full chine profile that adds stability can be loaded to free the ends of rockered hull. You see this theme repeated in the coastal play boats to one form or another. Round out the chines of all of them and you lose playfulness and stability but gain tracking and straight ahead efficiency. By chines I'm referring to the overall profile, not the edge profile.
I've over-simplified this, but that's the essence.
Happy paddling to all...
Yep
My latest one is 5-6 lbs lighter than my (wifes) older one.
Definition of Responsive
I am honestly curious about how people define this term. I wonder if it, like “secondary stability” is used differently which makes discussions confusing. To me it means that a boat very quickly and easily rotates around all three axes so that little effort is required, for good or ill, to alter the boat’s motion on those axes.
I’ll accept that definition…mostly
Ed, I think your definition would be what most paddlers I know mean when they talk about responsiveness in a kayak.
Liveliness is a related but not synonymous term which may also be subject to varying interpretations.
“less demanding of the paddler”
That depends on what the paddler wants to do.
I understand the positives being discussed (splitting hairs with typical sea kayaks and users/uses anyway) but a boat that wallows, is sluggish/dull feeling, and heavy can also be "demanding" if it holds you back and keeps you in the slop longer than you want (would most paddlers even know if this was going on?).
While understandable in context, I still find it funny that things like speed and liveliness are seen as negatives. Sometimes I wonder if people give up more in their choices related to these trade-offs than they really need to.
Again, it all depends on what the paddler wants to do. Seems to me fit/comfort and volume considerations outweigh all of this for most (and gives very different impressions in same hulls).
As others have said, our personal definitions of some terms can confuse things. "Lively" would be a good example as it could be interpreted as more demanding (tippy/skittish/squirrelly) or more responsive and easier to control - depending on kayak, conditions, and paddler.
fine line
between responsive and out of control.
A boat that is loose and EZ to move could be called responsive by the knowledgeable paddler. the neophite might call it hard to control.
I ask a group “Is it EZ to make a WW boat go straight?” and the answer is always NO! and I ask again " Is it EZ to make a WW boat go straight?" why YES it is VERY EZ to make a WW boat go straight. Go ask anyone who paddles WW.
would you call THAT responsive?
steve
Yes I would
I can put my Pyranha I3 exactly where I want it laterally or down river. It will sit on a standing wave effortlessly and peel out easily. It is a responsive boat that is less forgiving than my previous ww boats.
I can paddle it straight, but it is a dog on flat water. Though not considered slow for a planing hull boat its hull speed makes a Swifty look like a Rapier.
For its design purpose and my growing abilities as a ww paddler it is a very good boat.
I don't think I would put a newbie in my I3 much more than I would put one in my Nordkapp LV.
depending on kayak, conditions, paddler
Absolutely!
Pleeeeeeeze…
…don’t make me wait until May for the Z.
we’ll see
I’m traveling back E in a week and I’ll know more about when the Z will be ready. The roto mold is due soon. composite may take a while.
May sounds a long way off, eh???
If you’re in western Washington you can paddle my proto!
steve
I am…
…and would love to.
Ordered Two
We ordered two already and can’t wait to give them a try. I loved the Meridian, so this one can’t be all that bad…
…better be good. I went mostly off of your descriptions.
yikes…
the pressure’s ON!
methinks you’ll like. I sure do!
steve
Speed/liveliness
"I still find it funny that things like speed and liveliness are seen as negatives"
I'm not sure if anybody has indicated that "speed" is a negative.
"Liveliness" is a bit more complicated and whether it is a "negative" or not depends on the degree and the purpose of the boat.
The "liveliness" of a surf ski apparently is no real disadvantage in open ocean racing (or the disadvantage confirs significant advantage in speed) but it probably would not be too welcome, by most people (including experienced sea kayakers) as an attribute for a touring boat.
==============================
"but a boat that wallows, is sluggish/dull feeling, and heavy can also be "demanding" if it holds you back and keeps you in the slop longer than you want (would most paddlers even know if this was going on?)."
Yes, such a boat is harder to control (ie, it's more demanding). Many paddlers stick to very flat conditions where such attributes don't matter much. (One thing that people do appear to notice on flatwater is tracking.)
“Responsive” is not "easy to use"
A simple definition of “responsiveness” is the degree of effort for an intentioned change in momentum. (More responsive = less effort).
Typically, one also gets an increase in the frequency of unintentioned changess in momentum. (That is, there’s a cost to “responsiveness”.) This is responsiveness too but, typically, the type of responsiveness that people don’t want.
“Responsive” doesn’t mean “easy to use” (without skill).
A WW boat is very responsive. That responsiveness takes skill to be able to control.
A boat that tracks very well is not responsive (to turning).
Things, in different situations, can be too responsive. A WW boat on a long flatwater trip is annoying in its responsiveness
“Responsive” doesn’t mean “easy to use”
…unless it’s a Romany
Is there an echo in here?
"depends on the degree and the purpose of the boat."
I thought that's what I was saying - but perhaps not clearly? You just agreeing? At least we can agree on the obvious! *L*
"The "liveliness" of a surf ski apparently is no real disadvantage in open ocean racing (or the disadvantage confirs significant advantage in speed) but it probably would not be too welcome, by most people (including experienced sea kayakers) as an attribute for a touring boat."
That's one interpretation of "liveliness" - but a bit simplistic and not the only one. You seem to be limiting "liveliness" to meaning tippiness/low initial stability in this case. I might personally agree with that sort of description at my (lack of) skill level, but a good ski paddler who is past the balance thing and who lives for small craft advisory/big swell days would more likely be looking at "liveliness" in terms of how responsive the hull is to inputs (much as you describe for WW) and how well the water can read through it - improving the ability to manage the conditions and tap into the energy there (that sort of free energy being something a pointy ended potbellied wallower of a play boat rarely gets to tap except for brief spurts mostly inside the surf zone, a faster sea kayak a bit more outside, and a surf ski is made for - and hard to really argue against rudders for this stuff).
"Many paddlers stick to very flat conditions where such attributes don't matter much. (One thing that people do appear to notice on flat water is tracking."
True enough, but seems to me like they notice their lack of ability to keep the kayak on track more than it being about the kayak (as evidenced by the huge improvement a bit of mileage/seat time imparts). Some people can make an inner tube paddle straight!
Many people also stick to speed ranges where many attributes also don't really matter (flat or not). I think speed/efficiency are VERY noticeable on flat - and flat allows even more narrow specialization for this one aspect (K1).
Yep, purpose of boat, AND to what degree the paddlers uses it that way, AND where and when...
Then there's the other factor - who you paddle with - bringing me back to the thread topic: Explorer (assuming a good fit for the paddler) is going to be great in mixed company at average paces in whatever conditions the group is comfortable in (and making it's owner look/feel particularly good/advantaged if it gets near their upper limits). This describes a lot of paddling groups/situations.
Agree That
"Explorer (assuming a good fit for the paddler) is going to be great in mixed company at average paces in whatever conditions the group is comfortable in (and making it’s owner look/feel particularly good/advantaged if it gets near their upper limits)."
This is a very applicable argument. When I’m in my Explorer I feel comfortable on flatwater, in chop, in wind (NOT quartering from the rear, however, when a good sweep stroke is a MUST), going fast, etc.
Just a great, fairly fast, manuverable, safe kayak.
Glenn