explorer loaded and unloaded
What is good about the Explorer is that it can do so many things well, including being one of the few expedition capable boats than one can paddle unloaded and take surfing. However, weighted down with 3-4 weeks of expedition gear it loses its liveliness and becomes a bit more of a pig as, say, compared to a P&H Quest, which comes alive when it is full of gear but isn’t much fun in conditions unloaded. Not to quibble, if I could only have one boat it would probably be an Explorer, but I’ve owned and sold two as there are better options if one wants to fill particular niches.
Misunderstanding?
– Last Updated: Nov-20-07 11:37 AM EST –
"I still find it funny that things like speed and liveliness are seen as negatives"
I was confused by this. I don't believe anybody sees "speed" as a negative. "Liveliness" could be reasonably be seen as a negative depending on the degree and purpose of the boat (thus, one should not be surprised if people rate liveliness as a negative).
It was a bit of an echo and, apart from discussing the "funny" comment, it was meant to be (in different terms). I wanted it to be clear that the "sluggish/dull feeling" tends to mean "harder to control". (No one else has, as far as I know, used the phrase "harder to control" in this discussion.)
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"That's one interpretation of "liveliness" - but a bit simplistic and not the only one. You seem to be limiting "liveliness" to meaning tippiness/low initial stability in this case"
It was an -example-. I wasn't attempting a thesis on the meaning of "liveliness". My comments about WW boats were meant to be general (thus, they apply here too).
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"lives for small craft advisory/big swell days would more likely be looking at "liveliness" in terms of how responsive the hull is to inputs [etc]"
No doubt this is true since there has to be some reason people choose to paddle the things!
Anyway, it's not clear to me that the tippiness of surf skis or racing kayaks is a direct advantage or a -cost- of making the hull faster. Clearly, competent surf ski paddlers have the skill to handle (overcome) the tippiness of a surf ski.
oh yeah?
quote~~I wanted it to be clear that “sluggish/dull feeling” tends to mean “harder to control”. (No one else has used the phrase “harder to control” in this discussion.)~~quote
really???
from my post a bit higher up the thread:
“A boat that is loose and EZ to move could be called responsive by the knowledgeable paddler. the neophite might call it hard to control”
just checking in…
steve
Yeah, actually
– Last Updated: Nov-20-07 12:02 PM EST –
Flatpick: "A boat that is loose and EZ to move could be called responsive by the knowledgeable paddler. the neophite might call it hard to control."
We are actually talking about two different "hard to controls" from two -different- ends of the spectrum.
I'm was talking about the 150lb boat with the "sluggish/dull feeling" being "hard to control". No one else used "hard to control" in that context (but people -did- imply it).
Do I have this right?
> “sluggish/dull feeling” tends to mean “harder to >control”.
On the other hand
“A boat that is loose and EZ to move could be … >the neophite might call it hard to control”
So any boat might be called hard to control irrespective of its traits.
Which I guess gets back to the point if you don’t know the paddler, you don’t know what he is saying about the boat when he describes it. Which should give some food for thought about how to evaluate reviews and discussions or rather whether such can be evaluated.
Yes
– Last Updated: Nov-20-07 3:37 PM EST –
There's a "just right" thing that people want.
The actual position of that "just right" thing depends on paddler skill and purpose.
What is too responsive in one place (eg, a WW boat on flatwater) is appropriately responsive in another (eg, white water).
Another way to look at it is that the WW boat sits at one end of the spectrum ("too responsive") and a loaded, long sea kayak sits at the other ("poorly responsive"). Both could be concidered "hard to control" but for different reasons.
If you downhill-ski, thinking about ski weights might make things more clear. A really, really light ski would be "too responsive" and a really, really heavy ski would be "poorly responsive". An expert skier would want niether of these since both would be "hard to control". What you want is a ski that is "just right" (and what is "just right" will be different for different people and situations).
yep
different strokes fer different folks.
same boat:
Paddler 1-Wow…this boat is EZ to turn.
Paddler 2-Wow…this boat doesn’t track worth beans.
another boat:
P/1-Wow…this boat tracks well.
P/2-Wow…this boat doesn’t turn worth beans.
Boat example 3:
P/1- Wow…this boat is TIPPY
P/2- WOW…this boat edges well and is EZ to roll.
and the review that most ALWAYS says : a solid 10…I WUV my boat!!!
=:-0)
steve
I’m getting disillusioned…
You mean what Goldilocks says is just right… isn’t always?
But I do give her a 10…
I keep looking for “11”
– Last Updated: Nov-20-07 3:36 PM EST –
I keep looking for "11"!
"End user" reviews of boats are a problem because most of them are based on the false logic of "I spent $XXX on it, therefore, it's a great boat".
The perfect boat would
know your style and preferences and automatically continuously morph it’s shape according to an ever changing sea state to accomodate your style!
Till that happens you just have to find one that covers most of your bases most of the time, regardless of what logo it has.
Surfs up!
And …
Change color on demand.
Paddler NUANCES are Laughable
I just find it so tickling to read, hear, see, all these screwed-up paddlers talking about such MINOR nuances in canoes, kayaks, paddles, etc.
Good God, I’ve owned dozens, perhaps 100 personal boats in 5 years. My Merlin II was fast enough, but didn’t have “personality”. My Galt BJX Special was “SLOW” for such a narrow canoe. I “couldn’t kneel” in my Grasse River Classic XL. My Mad River Liberty (Independence) “just didn’t do anything well”, etc.
Same with the kayaks I’ve owned. Good Jezebel, we’re more picky about our piece of crap boats than about the spouses we pick.
I guess you could say we “divorce” our boats for things similar to snoring, picking noses, farting, walking like elephants, asking us questions right after work, channel flipping, leaving socks on the floor.
Personally, I’d conclude there are a BUNCH of sick-ass paddlers out there who, like me, want COMPLETE and ABSOLUTE CONTROL over how their boat(s) track, turn, roll, surf, respond, etc.
I guess for some of us its important for the conditions we paddle in, but for many of us, its just a matter of that “feel” of moving, turning, etc., through the water with minimal effort, forgiveness, responsiveness, speed, whatever!!!
To me, this is an ILLNESS, but one for which I’ve never found a cure, and perhaps never want one…
Criminy, I’ve got more NICE, NICE kayaks and canoes than Carter had recessions!!! Every time I paddle my Guillemot Nighthawk, my Wabash Valley Merlin, my Bell Wildfire, my SEDA Vagabond, or my NDK Explorer, I exclaim, “Now THIS is the (insert “canoe” or “kayak”) for me!!!”
This is a disease for which I don’t want a cure, but it is, nonetheless, and illness… There is certainly something wrong with those of us who own more boats than we can POSSIBLY paddle. Some of us are so sick that we buy one, sell it, then purchase it, again!
It’s warm here in Southern Michigan. My chariot/steed/stallion awaits me…
Glenn
you just have to find one…
Or ‘some’ that cover your desired paddling endeavors 
I brought both my Romany and Aquanaut to the Downeast Symposium this past September. I used the Romany for Greenland and Sullivan Falls while employing the Aquanaut for 4* training. Last year I used the Aquanaut for all my classes but found this year having the two different boats suited the different sessions.
My 4 sea kayaks, 1 ww boat, AND car cost less than the BMW my financial advisor drives. Compared to many enthusiasms, paddling is cheap AND it helps keep one happy, healthy, and wise…
what I want…
is the free time…to paddle.
a sweet place…to paddle.
skilled friends…to paddle with.
the boat? it’s NOT a deal breaker. heck I have been told I could paddle a driftwood log and make it look good.
whatever…I’m going out to the bay! where’s my log?
steve
Boats/spouses
"we’re more picky about our piece of crap boats than about the spouses we pick"
That makes sense since you might not be able to paddle your spouse!
learly, many people here have a better relationship with their boats that their spouses!
“the boat? it’s NOT a deal breaker.”
Yup.
I like the reviews
that say “It tracks like a freight train but turns on a dime”. C’mon ,it can’t do both well.
Are there any sea kayaks with side thrusters?
I want one.
Various Comments in Response…
Have not been up on the computer much in the last week. Had eye surgery and have not been able to see too well.
I have been able to skim most of the reponses to this post.
First let me point out that I completely agree about a boat being a mixture of compromises. It is true that we all must find the one boat that provides the trade-offs we want. Someone above made the commenbt about not listening to someone else’s ranting about how good their boat is…true; however, I would like to point out that I tried to point out both the pros and cons of the boat from my experience with it to define what the attributes of the boat. You can decide if those attributes are the ones you are looking for.
The Explorer is just particularly well rounded. Not perfect in any way, but pretty strong in many attributes and not too weak in any…other than perhaps the fact that it is not a very playful boat.
Someone else above asked about the Nordkapp LV. I am still fooling around with it. For me it is not as good of a fit. It is faster and more efficient than the Explorer as well. Very low secondary. Easier to maneuver and throw around in rough water. Great boat. Not as much hatch volume for sure. I have to do more rough water testing with it, but overall I would say that for most conditions it is a great boat…but if I were going to someplace like Anglesey (spelling?) to do a five star assessment…I’d take the Explorer over the Norkapp LV. To me it just seems like it would be more capable in extreme conditions; however, I’ve little experience so far with the LV.
As much as I like the Explorer I might keep the LV instead. It is more playful and adequate for most conditions. For me my decision will probably come down to how it does in rough ocean conditions. I need to take it out to the tide race at Indian River Inlet for a run. I doubt it will be as confidence inspring in these conditions as the Explorer, but probably a lot more playful.
Spouses…yeah I have spent a lot more time choosing a boat than a spouse, but I can’t switch spouses like I do boats! My wife often comments that she thinks I love my kayak more than her. She’s serious too…sad part is that she may be right…
Matt
Various comments in response…
“My wife often comments that she thinks I love my kayak more than her. She’s serious too…sad part is that she may be right…”
I have a couple of kayaks that I spend a lot of time with and think about often when I’m not with them. I guess you could say I pay more attention to them than my wife. Love them more than her? No way. Well there was this one time… I think it was surfing this 6 footer, barreling down between a narrow rocky inlet and the ol’ Explorer stayed right on course…no way it was even thinking of broaching. (Or was that my Chatham?)
It tracks like a freight train but turns
You just described a VAlley Q-boat!!! (but you’ve got to use the skeg)
Except with a Nordkapp LV
Just couldn’t resist…