no one is asking you to. good lord
you’re a person too
Instead of bitching to a group of anonymous people online who can do nothing about it, why not step up and talk to someone who can?
this gets me every time
– Last Updated: Nov-12-10 12:14 PM EST –
Not the OP. But the ensuing back-and-forth over NDK boats. Could the QC be better? Sure, but it's not substandard on every boat like some would have you believe. I've bought two, had the chance to inspect them first, and no problems. I am tough on my boats but my explorer still has the original composite seat.
If you don't like them or are uncomfortable buying one -then don't. But don't keep asking why people buy them and then ignore the answer. You'll get the very same answer next time the question is asked.
exactly
the only way you’ll get a better boat is if you vote with your wallet and bitch loud enough to bring this to the attention of those who don’t know it. If NDK started selling 50% less boats than last year they would perk up fast.
ridiculous speculation
and conjecture.
You both know that people don’t complain enough HOW?
I think it’s great irony to see people here trying to convince everyone else to take their gripes to NDK for them. Maybe those of us who have chosen the brand did so out of something other than blind ignorance, hmm?
I think you should talk to NDK about improving their QC if they want to convince you to buy them. But don’t assume that other owners either haven’t spoke on the issue or made their decision in spite of the reputation.
I’m not speculating that
Obviously you have but this is the internet. Others have not and there are new customers waiting in line - they need to know and they need to speak up.
(btw The word NEED is not to imply an order).
Not many choices for small, light people
Someone of my size and weight who wants an all-round sea kayak that’s not just a daytripper or weekend camper does not have that many candidates to choose from. The situation is better than it was when I started paddling, but the range of choices is still nowhere near what it is for average-weight paddlers.
And all the boats I’ve paddled of somewhat similar dimensions and layup to my NDK boats weigh about the same as they do.
Everything I’ve heard about Mr. Dennis
…indicates that he’s a great guy. A “great ambassador for the sport”? Sure. His boat DESIGNS are excellent, too. I don’t think there’s anyone who would dispute either of those things. However, he obviously either doesn’t listen to complaints about his boats or he just doesn’t care, as there’s no way he could live in a vacuum in this industry and simply not know about the constant, lingering quality problems. He knows and he’s obviously chosen not to do anything about it. That’s a really horrible and irresponsible way to run a business. Personally, I would never spend a dime with ANY company that’s run that way.
mat
Well…a rolled out chopper gun mat is pretty hard to tell from mat “fabric”. Still it’s grossly resin rich and certainly not the way to make a quality product.
Bill H.
QC vs. construction
First, I’ve got an old NDK Greenlander and it’s a great design, built like crap but the design is great.
Their quality control isn’t all that bad, their basic construction though is awful, well ok it’s not bad if it was 1960, but it’s not 1960.
Being 50 years behind in the basic technology says alot about what they think about their customers.
Bill H.
there have been new customers
NDK is not a new company. They’ve had ‘new’ customers for decades and apparently draw enough back, along with additional new customers, to keep them solvent and building kayaks?
Why is that?
and what customers think of them
?
Did I say there were no new customers? What are we talking about?
Why is that?
Why is that? What do I care? Nigel Denis is not my grandpa. I have no emotional attachments to a company.
I can tell you a few things with certainty.
- I like NDK. I like Nigel Denis. I like people who sell his stuff and I like people who paddle his stuff.
- I don’t paddle his stuff. At the time when I was looking to buy a kayak, I test paddled Explorer, Explorer HV and Romany Surf. I did not like Explorer and I did not like the Romany enough to fork over the cash.
At that time I had no idea about their bad quality control.
If I did buy the boat then and later found out about the bad build quality of their boats I would be supporting any kind of pressure on NDK to improve; because at some point I would be looking for another kayak and I would like to buy a better quality NDK than the first time around.
that new layup
gotta a chance to take that boat out while it was up here in NE and run it off some rocks and play with it a bit…it was very, very nice. weather cocked a bit more than i expected but seat placement might be all to take care of that. it was as playful as and turned like a much smaller boat - figure that was due to the fact that it weighed relative spit. suggested that the foredeck get beefed up a bit if anyone was going to be “working” in it. other than that, i’d like it if you finished the beta and sent it back up for extended sea trials and before i get too damn old to really enjoy it.
Depends on the customer
When I got my NDK Explorer LV, Nigel Dennis was the only Brit manufacturer who even had an expedition length boat with cockpit that fit an average sized woman worth a damn. The only North American company that was thinking about it as early as NDK was Current Designs, with the RM Squall, but even they were later than NDK with their first woman-scaled boat in fiberglass (the Slipstream) by a good bit. Somewhere after the Slipstream Necky released the original drop-skeg Elaho in RM, which had a cockpit if not a volume that was a good fit, but that was really a very rockered play boat. The Vela from P&H also followed a bit, though at 15’8" it really doesn’t stand as an expedition boat on the scale of the Explorer or the Squall in terms of carrying capacity.
So at the time that the Explorer LV came out, if I wanted a decently fitting cockpit in an expedition boat, NDK was the only maker with one in fiberglass and Squall was the only North American option.
Granted there are lots more options out there now that are really low volume boats all around, but it’s only average sized guys or above who get to gripe about NDK not relating to its customers. For smaller people they were doing better than most.
Today
First,let me say that I do not now,and have never,worked for NDK. In years past,I sold NDK boats. Today, I have five NDK boats.I am replacing the seat in my 10 year old Explorer(that inferior design only lasted 10 years of 100-200 days a year use), and my wife’s 10 year old Explorer LV has a gel coat spider crack which puts it in the shop as well.
Today,I am involved in the repair process of numerous boats from a variety of well known kayak companies who use the “latest” techniques and materials - and there in lies the rub. The other brands have a litany of problems which include: serious gel coat issues (spider cracks and gouging of the hull), leaking hatches, cracked and broken hulls and decks, gel coat “orange peeling”, broken wire skegs and blown out “modern” seams.
Today, we are preparing to buy two more NDK boats. My fear is that NDK has succumbed to the “modern lightweight” pressures frequently espoused in forums such as this one. We will then not have an opportunity to paddle fantastic designs;we project the old boats will last at least 20 years and hope the new ones will do the same. Apparently, for some, we have made flawed buying decisions and are the victims of an uncaring manufacturer. C’est la vie.
what do designs have to do with it?
How does demanding better workmanship influence whether you’ll be able to paddle a great design?
A design can be made using various technologies and under the scrutiny of various quality controls. It is those details that are under the microscope here.
it doesn’t
– Last Updated: Nov-16-10 2:10 PM EST –
You can continue to make any demand you want. The recipient of those demands will either decide they are worth their while, or not. Apparently in your mind and a few others, they have decided against doing so. Who else do you want to make demands?
We must be operating in a parallel universe here, because we keep coming back to the same point, which is this: buyers of NDK kayaks are generally aware of the QC issues. But they're still buying. Who is it you're trying to persuade into making these demands? The current owners, of course. Yet they're largely content. We're talking about boats that flaws and all, have taken many people through expeditions safely, so let's put the QC issues into the proper context.
Re-post this thread in two years and the response will be the same.
but that’s just my point
NDK have to be aware of their rep when it comes to QC. Yet they keep making boats, keep having QC crop up (although I think it is exaggerated), and they keep selling boats.
I’d suggest that the typical NDK buyer is already well-aware of the QC issues with NDK and also may have been exposed to other brands enough to know these aren’t completely specific to NDK.