PaddleDog52, That is one beautiful kayak that you have - pretty nice! Hey thanks very much for the help. Now i’m learning…and I see now and agree that the WS Prospect 170 would be too wide for me (cock pit 34" x 18"). I can cross that off the list. So, that places the plastic Necky Chatam 17 (skeg, rotomolded, 2007, 63#s, $750) vs. composite Looksha IVS 17 (rudder, fiberglass, ~2001, ~53#s(?), $950) head to head. I like the idea of a skeg, plastic for durability as a first kayak and lower cost. But having a nice (and nice looking) fiberglass , faster(?) kayak for $950 is pretty tempting…
@PaddleDog52 said:
WS Tempest 170 has cockpit width of 18" as I can see that would be huge on you. You need 16" wide seat or even 15.5" would be good like my Extreme. To measure your width like race cars seat sit on bench and get two things like milk crates or boxes and see them like bookends then measure it when you stand up. Seat can be a bit wider but not two inches.
I know you want to get going but others will pop up this time of year. The Extreme in the picture started at 1800 on eBay. I bought it for 800 or 900. Fiberglass is durable unless your bouncing off rocks. Glass hull holds shape better so should be faster but doubt it’s noticeable. Try to wait to get what fits best and you like to look at. Saving money is always a plus but spending few hundred more and getting what’s best is cheap if you have it 4 years it’s 50 per year. Buy used and buy right you can get your money back. Sea kayaks are not jumping off the shelves at the moment. Rec boats are. Any pictures of kayaks?
@PaddleDog52 said:
I know you want to get going but others will pop up this time of year. The Extreme in the picture started at 1800 on eBay. I bought it for 800 or 900. Fiberglass is durable unless your bouncing off rocks. Glass hull holds shape better so should be faster but doubt it’s noticeable. Try to wait to get what fits best and you like to look at. Saving money is always a plus but spending few hundred more and getting what’s best is cheap if you have it 4 years it’s 50 per year. Buy used and buy right you can get your money back. Sea kayaks are not jumping off the shelves at the moment. Rec boats are. Any pictures of kayaks?
I like the necky personally. I think it would hold it’s value better if maintain. Seat back looks high does it adjust down? Thinking about skirt over it.
The Looksha IV is a noble craft and got a lot of people on the water. But, and this is a big one, it is also an older high decked, ruddered design that does not play as well with some of the more current sea kayaking skills compared to either the Chatham 17 or the Tempest 170. You are a good match for the Chatham 17, your weight is near the bottom but your height is OK for the Tempest 170.
Plastic versus fiberglass, both are fine and each have different advantages. IMO, the fit and performance of the boat matter more for your first one than the material it is made of.
But what kind of things do you want to do? Straight out touring, any of these boats would do you. On water access to some of your stuff? You need a boat with a day hatch, which may argue for one of the newer ones. Rolling? Lower decks better.
He wants straight line touring from what he said above. If Tempest has a 18" wide cockpit I have no clue how it would fit 6’ @ 160 lb Personally I don’t think a day hatch is a requirement. Chatam 17 is nice at 21 inches. Cockpit is 17.75" wide have you sat in it?
The OPer said he wanted a touring kayak that he can enjoy for years to come. He may be saying straight touring or he may be using the term touring kayak to specify the kinds of features he wants. There is no comment on paddling environment or if he has thought about skills.
I have sat in all three of the Chathams, though the 18 was the first year one when the marketing folks got a hold of the cockpit dimensions. Paddled the 16 and 18. In fact my fave of the three would have been the 16 because it is a hoot to roll and I liked its maneuverability. But I am 5’3.5" and thus too small for much of what would fit the OPer.
I have paddled the Looksha IV, I still have the Necky Elaho and my first sea kayak was ruddered. (CDSquall) I am reasonably familiar with the basic characteristics of the Looksha IV even tough it is a barge on me.
If you are someone who likes a day hatch, it is usually that you like it a whole lot. I as well as my husband lived from our day hatches on the water when paddling larger bodies of water. And we often needed to get to something larger, like the Kokatat PakLight Cag mode than once when conditions changed in Maine. Those would not have been moments when we would have wanted to pull our skirts, and we always paddled with a fairly thin front deck. Spare paddles, chart, maybe one other smaller object in a dry case. I would still not get a boat without one because I really use it.
So I would hesitate to make decisions for others about the value of a day hatch. It is difficult to assess until someone has tried a boat with it. I know a few who can take or leave it, but have seen it more often go the other way.
I can’t make a decision for anyone.here they are the purchaser. It’s all opinion. You don’t have to to have a day hatch to get at a Gag. Clear what his priority is at the moment as he stated the following (especially in regards to a slight edge in efficiency and tracking - which seems more important to me than “playfulness”)` Someone looking for a rec or transitional kayak I would not say get a 21" kayak which you may like in later years. If conditions make me not want to open my skirt I would not want to be playing with a deck hatch in back of me to get a Gag out. I don’t think he needs a cockpit wider than 16" and could get a kayak @ 16’. There are not many kayaks near him on craigslist. He may want to travel farther for more selection. The Solstice GT HV OP has considered has a cockpit 16" x 31" and the seat base is 16" wide. The season is coming to an end unless for most without proper gear. That may let someone have more time to look and get a better deal or make someone want to get a kayak and try it before winter. Buying in the winter would leave most unable to do a demo paddle. Some kayaks could have an day hatch added if someone likes them.
@ Micheal what have you paddled to date and where will your kayak be used? Patience in selection is key and frustrating at times. If you settle for something your dream boat may pop up next week.
As I mentioned earlier. my wife has a Looksha IV which she really likes. Personally I would not choose this kayak. I don’t care for rudders and (like Celia) I really like a day hatch (where I keep my storm cag etc.). Note that day hatches are typically small and separately enclosed and, if flooded, are somewhat less threatening. My NDK Explorer rolls easily which is also one of my criteria. My Mariner Express is harder for me to roll, but has neither skeg nor rudder and truly needs neither, a simpler technical solution with no spare parts list for my tool kit. Probably few of my current criteria were important to me when I bought my first kayak (a Seaward Endeavor). Like many of us, the OP’s needs and preferences will evolve and (if he takes to the sport) he’ll spend more on kayaks than he ever dreamed. So if he gets a somewhat decent kayak for starters, he can continue on this journey.
I know they are small and can’t be flooded like a cockpit. For me personally sitting in a cockpit and turning to open and remove items and reinstall hatch in rough water I would not relish. It may be easier for some people to accomplish.
If you have one kayak you like it’s easier to wait for another you like better or to add to the fleet. If you buy at the right price used it cost you little to nothing to change the kayak.
@PaddleDog52 said:
I know they are small and can’t be flooded like a cockpit. For me personally sitting in a cockpit and turning to open and remove items and reinstall hatch in rough water I would not relish. It may be easier for some people to accomplish.
If you have one kayak you like it’s easier to wait for another you like better or to add to the fleet. If you buy at the right price used it cost you little to nothing to change the kayak.
PaddleDog52, I haven’t got a chance to paddle any of the kayaks - it doesn’t seemspossible (?). You said you prefer the necky - not sure which one you meant (?) My hope is to get a super kayak for touring (very efficient to paddle in a straight line, useful in flat to chop, with the possibility and range to use it in mild coastal conditions, day touring…overall a NICE machine to paddle. When i first started looking, i wanted a newer composite type kayak because i was concerned about the RMs oil canning etc. I like the looks of a composite much better also. But i’ve reconsidered RMs just to get started. I’m not concerned about rocks or rivers - or white water (just not for me) But, getting into a kayak (the Necky Chatam 17 at $750) that is plastic as my first true kayak seemed like a possible way to go. I think i am going to take Celia’s advice about the Looksha IV - and let it go. What do you think…Really what i’d like is a lighter kayak, a skeg design due to simplicity, slightly newer (>2007), around 1000$. Ive taken the road to being patient - especially since the season is somewhat winding down.
The OPer said he wanted a touring kayak that he can enjoy for years to come. He may be saying straight touring or he may be using the term touring kayak to specify the kinds of features he wants. There is no comment on paddling environment or if he has thought about skills.
I have sat in all three of the Chathams, though the 18 was the first year one when the marketing folks got a hold of the cockpit dimensions. Paddled the 16 and 18. In fact my fave of the three would have been the 16 because it is a hoot to roll and I liked its maneuverability. But I am 5’3.5" and thus too small for much of what would fit the OPer.
I have paddled the Looksha IV, I still have the Necky Elaho and my first sea kayak was ruddered. (CDSquall) I am reasonably familiar with the basic characteristics of the Looksha IV even tough it is a barge on me.
If you are someone who likes a day hatch, it is usually that you like it a whole lot. I as well as my husband lived from our day hatches on the water when paddling larger bodies of water. And we often needed to get to something larger, like the Kokatat PakLight Cag mode than once when conditions changed in Maine. Those would not have been moments when we would have wanted to pull our skirts, and we always paddled with a fairly thin front deck. Spare paddles, chart, maybe one other smaller object in a dry case. I would still not get a boat without one because I really use it.
So I would hesitate to make decisions for others about the value of a day hatch. It is difficult to assess until someone has tried a boat with it. I know a few who can take or leave it, but have seen it more often go the other way.
Celia - thank you for your advice concerning the Looksha IV
@rsevenic said:
As I mentioned earlier. my wife has a Looksha IV which she really likes. Personally I would not choose this kayak. I don’t care for rudders and (like Celia) I really like a day hatch (where I keep my storm cag etc.). Note that day hatches are typically small and separately enclosed and, if flooded, are somewhat less threatening. My NDK Explorer rolls easily which is also one of my criteria. My Mariner Express is harder for me to roll, but has neither skeg nor rudder and truly needs neither, a simpler technical solution with no spare parts list for my tool kit. Probably few of my current criteria were important to me when I bought my first kayak (a Seaward Endeavor). Like many of us, the OP’s needs and preferences will evolve and (if he takes to the sport) he’ll spend more on kayaks than he ever dreamed. So if he gets a somewhat decent kayak for starters, he can continue on this journey.
Paddledog52, i’m still going to be patient as per your advice. I think you are my kayak angel and guide. see my other comment about what i’d like to do with my kayak. thanks again for all of your help - m.
@PaddleDog52 said:
I can’t make a decision for anyone.here they are the purchaser. It’s all opinion. You don’t have to to have a day hatch to get at a Gag. Clear what his priority is at the moment as he stated the following (especially in regards to a slight edge in efficiency and tracking - which seems more important to me than “playfulness”)` Someone looking for a rec or transitional kayak I would not say get a 21" kayak which you may like in later years. If conditions make me not want to open my skirt I would not want to be playing with a deck hatch in back of me to get a Gag out. I don’t think he needs a cockpit wider than 16" and could get a kayak @ 16’. There are not many kayaks near him on craigslist. He may want to travel farther for more selection. The Solstice GT HV OP has considered has a cockpit 16" x 31" and the seat base is 16" wide. The season is coming to an end unless for most without proper gear. That may let someone have more time to look and get a better deal or make someone want to get a kayak and try it before winter. Buying in the winter would leave most unable to do a demo paddle. Some kayaks could have an day hatch added if someone likes them.
@ Micheal what have you paddled to date and where will your kayak be used? Patience in selection is key and frustrating at times. If you settle for something your dream boat may pop up next week.
What is your travel range? Sometimes people will travel to make a sale. I traveled 200+ miles to get some deals. More kayaks where there’s more water like the coast. Ask for bunch of pictures that are current. I have a couple of SOT’s 15’ Ocean Trident and 13’ Hobie Quest. They are heavy and PITA to load I think because of length. I find it easier to load my 22’ 100 lb. Libra XT on my 7-10" Excursion. Roto is good too and so is skeg yak. I tend to paddle like you here to there in the bays and inlets on Long Island. With my honey or alone all winter as she won’t go after October to cold. Alone I usually do more exercise paddle and seal watching. I wanted a Libra XT tandem and not many around here. Most are up North and Canada. After two years I found one close. 1900 decent for 1999 then they changed their mind. Just about gave up. Next day I said I’ll look again. I found another 1999 for 900 in great shape. Four hour drive each way.
So I say don’t panic your boat will come. Don’t settle. The purple Extreme I got was 1800 on eBay I paid 8 or 9 hundred. If guy wants 1100 you can offer 800 and he can refuse or take it. I didn’t gaggle with the Libra XT for 900 that would have been heartless. Honey said we have a party to go to I said I have a kayak to go for. She came with me. She’s so happy now I still rub it in from time to time. Love the tandem.
Good thing is you’re thin and can fit in many kayaks easily. Keep looking many here to give good advice. To bad your not closer you could come paddle one of my Extremes. If you come by call.
John
Chatam 17 Rotomolded 33.5 x 17.75
Chatam 17 Compsite 32 x 16
Chatam 16.5 Rotomolded 30.75 x 14.25
@PaddleDog52 said:
WS Tempest 170 has cockpit width of 18" as I can see that would be huge on you. You need 16" wide seat or even 15.5" would be good like my Extreme. To measure your width like race cars seat sit on bench and get two things like milk crates or boxes and see them like bookends then measure it when you stand up. Seat can be a bit wider but not two inches.
i live near Pittsburgh and my travel range to ~240 (4hrs max). it is a little more limited since i’m not near open ocean. but something will come up. . looks like you live on LI NY.
@PaddleDog52 said:
What is your travel range? Sometimes people will travel to make a sale. I traveled 200+ miles to get some deals. More kayaks where there’s more water like the coast. Ask for bunch of pictures that are current. I have a couple of SOT’s 15’ Ocean Trident and 13’ Hobie Quest. They are heavy and PITA to load I think because of length. I find it easier to load my 22’ 100 lb. Libra XT on my 7-10" Excursion. Roto is good too and so is skeg yak. I tend to paddle like you here to there in the bays and inlets on Long Island. With my honey or alone all winter as she won’t go after October to cold. Alone I usually do more exercise paddle and seal watching. I wanted a Libra XT tandem and not many around here. Most are up North and Canada. After two years I found one close. 1900 decent for 1999 then they changed their mind. Just about gave up. Next day I said I’ll look again. I found another 1999 for 900 in great shape. Four hour drive each way.
So I say don’t panic your boat will come. Don’t settle. The purple Extreme I got was 1800 on eBay I paid 8 or 9 hundred. If guy wants 1100 you can offer 800 and he can refuse or take it. I didn’t gaggle with the Libra XT for 900 that would have been heartless. Honey said we have a party to go to I said I have a kayak to go for. She came with me. She’s so happy now I still rub it in from time to time. Love the tandem.
Good thing is you’re thin and can fit in many kayaks easily. Keep looking many here to give good advice. To bad your not closer you could come paddle one of my Extremes. If you come by call.
John
@michaeljp I just looked at the photos of that Explorer. Suffice to say whoever has had this treated it much more nicely than I have any of my boats - it is in really good condition unless there has been much doctoring of the photos. An NDK Explorer is not above anyone’s head. It is one of the few most reassuring getting-started-in-big-water but-can-do-all-the-superskilled-stuff kayak ever made.
It is not a particularly fastest hull design - my husband’s Aquanaut (one of these days I will get photos to sell it) of a similar era had a faster hull speed. But his was also a tougher boat to turn when things got messy, whereas the Explorer or its smaller kin the Romany will reward an imperfect attempt with measurable success. And these boats will get a lot of paddlers home if they get caught in crap where they don’t have a clue what they are doing, as long as they let the boat do its thing.
I use my husband’s Romany these days for when I am in Maine and paddling by myself. While my other boat is faster on the sprint and altogether spiffier, the Romany has a huge edge if I get into trouble out there by myself. These boats not only have tremendous head room in their stabilities, but are among the easiest you can find in staying upright if you have to climb back into them. Nice low, flat back deck. And roll great - the Romany is the one boat that I can reliably roll at least on my right side when I fail in other boats. That is because it’ll still come up with a good oomph if I lift up my head too early, a technical flaw which my other boat simply will not tolerate. She puts me back into the water when I try that.
So - obviously I think the Explorer is a heck of a boat for someone who may be paddling solo and may want to explore more challenge later on. If you want to try and keep up with boats tuned for speed, like the CD Extreme, you will likely not be happy. That said, I don’t think the Looksha IV is any faster than the Explorer.
The one constant complaint is those little 10 inch round hatches. Tents have to be broken into parts to load - separate stakes from tent from rain cover for example, huge stoves are not going to fit, and loading it for a long trip means lots of smaller dry bags. So you pack a larger carry sack on top and put the littler bags into the sack to carry stuff to the campsite.
These boats are usually NOT light, so you need to confirm weight. But you will find yourself needing accessories to handle any 17 ft boat unless you want to put yourself into a back brace early.
Yes LI. 4 HR was about my limit. Bought Extreme for 300 in Binghamton but got nail in traffic and got sick the whole way Stopping to vomit added more time. Put another 5-600 in it to restore it. My labor is free LOL. Replace everything but hull and rudder. Painted with epoxy. Your dream is coming. Not sure on other makes standard seat in Current Design kayaks are 16" they offer wide base 17" seat. Even my 15.5" wide cockpit on the Extremes makes it comfortable with the wide base 17" seat. I converted all my CD kayaks except Libra XT which is standard 17".
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