I’m a total newbie to Kayaking. I’m almost 64 years old and in decent health, 5’ 10” tall & 175 lbs. I like to canoe and although I can handle my 12’ canoe easily in the water by myself, I’m just too old to carry it anymore. I live directly across the street from a river which is pretty calm but has a tide shift as I’m about 4 miles upriver from the ocean.
So I’m looking to try Kayaking as I know I can easily carry a 40-50 lb Kayak a 100+ yards to the river.
I’m getting different advise from friends (some just got their Kayaks) about length and they are recommending a longer one, while another friend of mine is pretty experienced and says for me, a 9-10’ is fine for what my initial intentions are.
So I understand that the longer the Kayak, the easier it is to keep it going straight (Tracking right?) What about mobility and turning, I would think a shorter one is more mobile and easier to turn?
So I’ll get to my main question, what do most people recommend for length for someone’s first kayak for river kayaking (for now).
If it was me, I’d be taking my 14 ft Dagger Alchemy up and down that river and I’d know that if I wanted to go play in the ocean that it would be a very appropriate craft for the job.
Your river being tidal, I am assuming it is flat water, not white water? When we hear rivers, we often think of white water conditions, which is a much different boat than flat water. A flat water river is similar to a lake in boat needs.
There are variations due to hull shape and such, but in general longer goes straight better, while shorter turns easier. Most of your paddling is going straight, so tracking is considered to be the more important attribute. There are extremes, of course - I probably wouldn’t be looking at a boat of 18’ or over. You won’t need that level of tracking.
Shorter boats also need to be wider to provide the same amount of flotation. A under 10’ boat will be at least 30" wide, possibly even 36. Much different than a 14 foot boat that would be 22-26" wide.
For any sort of semi-serious paddling on flat water for you (a 175 pound adult), I personally wouldn’t look at below 12 feet. And likely you wouldn’t need something longer than 16’, unless you were doing overnight trips or needed to carry lots of gear.
Challenge will be that kayak in this range, unless a very high end composite (carbon or kevlar) or home made wood of skin on frame, will likely be over 50 pounds.
Can a dolly or wheel set up solve your transport issues, whether with the canoe or make it easier for a kayak?
Years ago I bought my Wife a 14 foot Alchemy L and she has mostly paddled that boat in spite of having others that are longer and shorter. I’d look for light general kayak like that Alchemy or just get an Alchemy and a cart. The carts these days are fabulous and they can go over any terrain with the right wheels.
@LPH said:
… I like to canoe and although I can handle my 12’ canoe easily in the water by myself, I’m just too old to carry it anymore. I live directly across the street from a river which is pretty calm but has a tide shift as I’m about 4 miles upriver from the ocean.
So I’m looking to try Kayaking as I know I can easily carry a 40-50 lb Kayak a 100+ yards to the river.
Can you clarify the reason for wanting to get a kayak? At first it sounds like you want a lighter boat, but as a general rule, canoes are lighter than kayaks. If a 40- to 50-pound boat is so much lighter than your 12-foot canoe that it would provide a big improvement in portability, that canoe must be quite a pig. On the other hand, you also make it sound like you want a kayak because you might be paddling out to the ocean, and that makes more sense, since a kayak would usually be a better choice for that.
Anyway, your reason makes a big difference, because for any given boat length, a canoe should be lighter than a kayak, and if you don’t mind paying for that attribute, substantially lighter. For example, my Bell Merlin II, which is 15 feet long, weighs 31 pounds, and pack canoes (which are made with carrying in mind and are typically paddled in much the same manner as kayaks) are generally lighter still.
14 foot
I agree with guideboatguy on canoes. If you look around, you can often find some decent solo canoes in the 15 - 16 ft range that are in the mid to upper forties. Our fiberglass Mad River Independence started around 45 lb in fiberglass. With tidal currents though you may still want/need a kayak. As usual, weight & cost tend to have an inverse relationship. One other option beyond high-end composites and skin-on-frame boats are the stitch and glue kits. There are a number out there. I’m familiar with the Pygmy kayaks having built two. If you have the time & space you can get a great kayak. http://www.pygmyboats.com/boats/rec-kayaks.html
Why don’t you buy a cart for the canoe to get you to the water?
It does depend of course on how you want to use it. A few things to think about…I have had kayaks as short as 15’6" and never had to worry about tracking except in windy conditions. If you are just going to be taking short trips on the river, and if the river is somewhat protected (e.g., due to terrain along bank) and/or if you can just not go out on excessively windy days, then maneuverability (shorter kayak) may be more important to you than tracking. Why would you care about maneuverability? If you are just going to do linear back-and-forths in the main river you probably wouldn’t, but speaking for myself at least, I use to really enjoy “gunkholing” in and around rivers and river mouths when I lived on Long Island sound. It was really fun winding my way up increasingly narrow water trails and through salt marsh areas and even my 15’6" boat was a bit long for some of that. Anyway, it is potentially a consideration depending on whether you will be exploring in those sorts of areas, or paddling more for exercise (which I assume would just be long straight paddles). Also, you didn’t say but I assume you are talking about a sit inside, traditional, kayak. As you are coming from a canoeing background, I wonder if you have considered a sit-on-top. Generally, this would be the heaviest of all options which is of course what you are trying to get away from but I just googled “lightest sit on top” and see that Hurricane makes one called the Skimmer 116 (who knows if they have any retailers in your area though) that comes in at 42 lbs and has a couple of good reviews on this website. So potentially, that’s another option, especially if you live in a warm part of the country and/or don’t mind taking time off from paddling in the winter. I don’t know if this would be easier, or even feasible, but you could also get an inexpensive polyurethane kayak (heavy), put a line on it, and drag it rather than carry it to the river. I don’t know how easy it is to drag a kayak for 100 yards or if the terrain would even allow that but with a plastic boat most people don’t worry too much about scratching the hull up (and of course its a lot less expensive than a fiberglass boat). If the route to the river is paved though, the dolly option mentioned by Peter-CA is a good one. I use to walk my kayak to LI sound (I lived about 4 blocks away) using a wheeled dolly that was small enough to fit inside the hatch and stow once I got to the ramp. Anyway, those are just a few thoughts. Good luck with your decision.
Very loosely, long and narrow is fast and tippy. Short and wide is slow and stable.
Tracking (going straight) is more of a design feature than a matter of length. Some boats are designed to turn easily but rarely go straight regardless of their length and the opposite is true, designed to turn. Very loosely, the more rocker you have (bottom curve) the easier it is to turn which is why white-water boats have a lot of rocker (like in a rocking chair) to get around those rocks in the river but touring boats do not as they just want to go straight.
I like a smaller 9-10’ boat for day trips on a calm lake or slow river because I am only out for a few hours and want to be able to move around, explore those tiny bays and the like. If I am camping for a bit or doing a faster river, I want the speed and capacity of a longer 14’ boat.
As for weight, NEVER BUY MORE BOAT THAN YOU CAN LOAD ON THE ROOF OF YOUR CAR AFTER A LONG PADDLE! I have a 10’ Mallard that weighs 50#, a 154’6" Whistler that weighs 63# and a 14’6" Carolina that weighs less than 40#. Plus my 12’ Pack canoe only weighs 33#. BUT, I can deform my lightweight Carolina with my hand but my Whistler is strong enough to survive a fall from my roof.
Weight is a matter of materials and thickness with high-end boats like Old Town and Wilderness Systems being much heavier because they are made to take a lot of punishment while a mid-range boat like Perception is much lighter but damages easier.
If the river is basically calm and you only go out for exercise, buy a shorter Perception Swifty as it goes straight, turns easily and is light enough to carry. BUT, don’t expect it to survive a lot of impact.
If you are planning to go camping, or the water is rough, get a mid-range boat 12-14’ but narrow.
There are a LOT of options out there.
I use my Mallard-10 for the Salt River as I want to get around those rocks and survive when I hit one. I use my Whistler-145 when I go long distance camping like on the Colorado River as I want to be able to go against the current and carry my camping gear. But for everyday playing around, I like my Dirago-12 as it is a good all-around general use boat that can also camp overnight or a few days easily, but my Dirago does not go against the current very well.
First of all, how much money are you prepared to spend? I’m ten years older than you and I still carry all of my boats just fine (not all at the same time). I have to say that there is some misconception about boat handling. One of my sea kayaks can turn on a dime and maneuver very quickly and it is just under 17’. Taking everything into consideration, my advice is to at least try on a decent sea kayak before you decide what you want. Yes, at first it might feel tippy, but if you are used to a small canoe, the kayak really should feel more stable and in fact will be.
Look at what Current Designs, Necky, Wilderness Systems, Eddyline, P&H, Valley, Delta and Stellar have to offer. You might even want to look at NC Kayaks for a light weight 15’-8" model that will do it all. They’ve got a $1000 off sale going on all in-stock models.
I find it easier to get in and out of canoes than my kayak. Knees and ankles don’t work so good any more. But I prefer the kayaks for speed and manoverability. . My wife tried smaller and wider poly boats and decided on buying a Valley Etain, 17 ft fiberglass sea kayak, for her first one.
- I think you should try some out and form your own opinions.
- . Always buy a little better than you are now cause when you get used to it slow will be boring.
- What do others in your area paddle.
PS… I’ll never see 64 again and I paddle with a lot of 70s and 80s year olds.
First, as above if carrying is an issue why is a kayak (or canoe) cart not in the picture? You can go less or more expensive, but I wouldn’t try living without one.
10 ft of kayak will be very wide, very not good at going straight in a tidal area and frustrating as hell. Don’t waste the money. Look for a kayak similar in length to your canoe, used, maybe you can find an unfrozen pond somewhere to try it out. Or new if you can find a dealer that you trust, has a good sale going and can seat you correctly.
BTW, the ten footers are also harder to car top than longer ones, especially if you get a boat with perimeter rigging, because the 10 footers have nothing to grip and are too short to slide.
@Celia said:
First, as above if carrying is an issue why is a kayak (or canoe) cart not in the picture? You can go less or more expensive, but I wouldn’t try living without one.10 ft of kayak will be very wide, very not good at going straight in a tidal area and frustrating as hell. Don’t waste the money. Look for a kayak similar in length to your canoe, used, maybe you can find an unfrozen pond somewhere to try it out. Or new if you can find a dealer that you trust, has a good sale going and can seat you correctly.
BTW, the ten footers are also harder to car top than longer ones, especially if you get a boat with perimeter rigging, because the 10 footers have nothing to grip and are too short to slide.
I really find my 22’ Libra easy to load on the Excursion roof and launch off the dock at low tide because of it’s length Celia said above. How much you want to spend is key. You can get 18’ and under kayaks 24" wide at 50 lb. new or used. I am in good shape but would not want to carry a 50 lb. anything 100+ yards since they invented the wheel. Personally 15’ would be the smallest kayak I would want.
@Overstreet said:
But I prefer the kayaks for speed and manoverability.
How do you find kayaks more maneuverable? If you make use of even just a few of the “non-power” strokes, your canoe should be able to spin, slide, and dance in ways that one normally doesn’t see kayakers playing around with at all (it’s not that kayakers can’t do such things. It’s largely that most of them simply don’t, but there’s also that aspect of kayaks usually being seated a little deeper in the water and therefore being rather resistant to the real ‘dance’ moves in tight quarters, though heeling helps (which of course is something canoers do too)).
Why not borrow your friends kayaks for a quick paddle and see what you like / dislike
@Guideboatguy said:
@Overstreet said:
But I prefer the kayaks for speed and manoverability.How do you find kayaks more maneuverable?
1… “… speed and maneuverability…” none of my canoes can be described as fast. I do know some fast canoe paddlers.
2 . note I did not say “more” maneuverable and exclude speed.
3. I belong to a hundred year old canoe club and one does not normally see freestyle canoe demonstrations there. The key is there is no universal “normal.” (kayak or canoe)
4. Have you ever seen a whitewater freestyle kayak? or a sea kayak “play boat” worked by a skilled paddler?. A freestyle canoe, play boat etc are not your standard boat. Look at the boats. They are often specific use boats… short, keel-less, rockered and stripped down of extra seats, thwarts, rigging, etc. Fun, but you might not want one as your only boat. Not that **I’d **ever say you had to stop at one boat ever!
@Overstreet said:
@Guideboatguy said:
@Overstreet said:
But I prefer the kayaks for speed and manoverability.How do you find kayaks more maneuverable?
1… “… speed and maneuverability…” none of my canoes can be described as fast. I do know some fast canoe paddlers.
2 . note I did not say “more” maneuverable and exclude speed.
3. I belong to a hundred year old canoe club and one does not normally see freestyle canoe demonstrations there. The key is there is no universal “normal.” (kayak or canoe)
4. Have you ever seen a whitewater freestyle kayak? or a sea kayak “play boat” worked by a skilled paddler?. A freestyle canoe, play boat etc are not your standard boat. Look at the boats. They are often specific use boats… short, keel-less, rockered and stripped down of extra seats, thwarts, rigging, etc. Fun, but you might not want one as your only boat. Not that **I’d **ever say you had to stop at one boat ever!
1 & 2: Bear in mind that your answer was given to a newbie who was looking for advice regarding canoes vs kayaks. To say that you “prefer kayaks for speed and maneuverability”, regardless of what unstated reasons you have for that based on your actual boats (which you didn’t mention at the time), and regardless of whatever peculiar qualifiers you wish to add at this time, would tell most people that you consider kayaks to be faster (generally true, for apples-to-apples comparisons) and more maneuverable (definitely not true when making apples-to-apples comparisons). I merely wanted to clarify that aspect to the original poster. That’s my main point, right there.
3 & 4: “No universal normal” does nothing to exclude the kinds of boats I’m thinking of, which are very generic, general-purpose ones. Freestyle canoes are NOT specialized boats. Sure, as you point out, solo canoes in competition don’t have center thwarts or seats, but that’s about all that sets them apart. Take your statement about keels for example. Being keel-less is NOT a specialized aspect at all, but actually the norm for canoes (all canoers I know wouldn’t want a keel for any reason). Look at the canoe in that video posted by Grayhawk and note that it’s a very general-purpose style of boat that plenty of average paddlers would enjoy using as a basic river cruiser - a Bell Wildfire - the polar opposite of “specialized”. Plenty of freestylers do those same moves in boats as mundane and generic as a Mohawk Solo 13 or 14. Oh, and it’s worth mentioning that very less-extreme variations of what you see in freestyle still constitute good maneuverability. With my question to you about kayaks versus canoes in regard to maneuverability, I was simply hoping you’d recognize that such things as the side-slipping and pivoting actions that are so commonplace among basic canoers in non-specialized boats, and which, for whatever reason, so few kayakers in comparable boats (say 14- to 15-foot touring boats), do not support the most obvious interpretation of what you said.
Bottom Line:
There’s no need to go off into the realm of other specialized boats for whitewater, etc, as you did. I’m referring to very ordinary boats, and strictly apples-to-apples comparisons (at least as close as such comparisons can be in the canoe-kayak world), and in that case, the most natural meaning one would infer from you your “more speed and maneuverability” statement was just wrong, and I didn’t think it did proper service to the OP’s question. That’s all.
Sorry I haven’t had a chance to get back to this very much and thanks for all the tips, still a lot to think about. @rnsparky , I am considering trying one of my friends Kayaks first. I also plan on going to a very good Kayak store in CT and they have a pond adjacent to their property to try out, but I want to have in my head an idea of what I think I want before going in. Still need to go through the replies and sort through all the tips to see what makes sense to me. Larry