ocean cockpit boats out there

Come on now
I agree that implosion is not much of an issue. It could happen, but you could also get hit by lightning or be abducted by aliens.



However, I’m truly suprised that you couldn’t manage to outfit your Greenlander to give you good control. You realize that you’re NOT supposed to use it as it comes from the factory, don’t you? If need be, I’ll be happy to give you outfitting lessons if you come out east again this year. :wink:



Foot pegs? People still use those? Pad the bulkhead, be more comfortable and leave your claw hammer at home.

Depends On What You Do, Doesn’t It?

– Last Updated: Mar-12-06 3:51 PM EST –

I believe TM over at Qajaq reported an implosion. I know one pretty good G style paddler had an implosion in conditions, even with an OC, tho' never publicly reported.

If a person paddles only in mildly (relative assessment) challenging conditions and out of the surf zone, no, implosion would not likely be an issue.

sing

I’m with flatpick
Paddled OC Nordkapps, other Valley’s, Arluk 1.8 for many years and miles. Not only does the keyhole cockpit in my surf kayak offer far better support, but it’s more comfortable, offers more control, and allows me to grip the boat tightly when getting thrashed. I’ve grown to see no rationale for an ocean cockpit from a logic standpoint. The arguments just don’t wash with me, as I’ve owned both. I guess it comes down to tradition and nostalgia, which I guess is valid enough. Both work… My current sea boats have keyholes and I like them better.

Tangential to topic
> I’m with flatpick



Is that a first?-)



I know a white water paddler who paddles with an inflated beach ball on his lap to help lock himself in and keep the sprayskirt from imploding. FWW.

Not a first
Beach ball on lap? C’mon, tell him to get a better spray deck…unbelievable.

OC = Comfy

– Last Updated: Mar-12-06 9:35 PM EST –

on a long paddle an OC allows you to change you paddling position adjust your legs and knees and just plain get comfortable all without ever losing "contact" with the boat.

ocs are way dryer since there's less area for water to get in.

on a side note: OCs allow you to have a very useful sized knee tube which is a really great storage option.

sure it's a new skill to learn, getting in and out. but it's relatively easily acquired and pretty rewarding once you get it.

the only issue i can see with it is for really large guys with big feet and torsos. i definitely can see a potential issue there.

my $0.02

More the locking in, I think
I understand he is a very good paddler, so I’m not about to knock what works for him.

it’s not only about implosion…
The beach ball serves as an overthruster which adds volume to the kayak and it really helps with moves such as loops. There are commercial overthrusters now available as well as skirts with built in inflation devices which also do the same thing as the beach ball.

what about the leg position rationale?
Can you think of a way you can securely keep your legs straight in front of you with a keyhole cockpit for Greenland style kayaking without a foam masik? I have 4 or 5 keyhole cockpit kayaks (ok 2 are Riot cockpits which are slightly smaller) and 1 ocean cockpit kayak and I find it strange that you would dismiss the utility of the ocean cockpit as “tradition and nostalgia” without really understanding the advantages it offers. Just because it doesn’t help you in your paddling style, doesn’t mean that it is universally inferior or superior to a keyhole. It’s better at different things and it’s a personal preference.

"Can you think of a way"
Sure, drop the whole deck a couple inches and cut the beam by a couple. Viola! Legs straight AND under the braces. Of course - as beam decreases the keyhole section gets narrower - maybe too narrow to be useful. Brings it right back to OC.



Good luck getting a commercial design like this too. Maybe someday. In the meantime - more mincell will remain the standard remedy.

IF…
He’s using the ball for some other reason than keeping him in the boat, I can get that. But as a rationale to keep a deck from imploding…? Sorry. In the end there’s no wrong or right here. Some love Ocean cockpits and that’s fine…I used to be in that camp. My thinking is simple: Get the boat that works for you and tweak whatever cockpit it has to work for you. If you subsequently need to create all sorts of rationale to justify your choice of boat/cockpit configuration, that’s your stuff, and only your stuff. What is interesting is this need to make our personal preferrences “right”. Folks, I’ve paddled most of em, and if I have to take the ass whippin of my life in a huge surf situation, it’s gonna be in my keyhole cockpit surf boat…BUT that’s just me. Do whatever the heck works for you! Just go do it… No one cares, and it doesn’t matter.

Forward stroke all the way
How many racers do you see with their legs splayed out? Why take the power and beauty out of the forward stroke by locking in the lower body.



The Ocean cockpit is a great solution for paddlers who both want to paddle effective and stay in their kayak during a capsize.



And as mentioned elsewhere in this thread. Why do so many keep using pedals for foodbrace? Install a wide food brace against the bulkhead or build a butterfly control for a rudder.



/Peter

That’s Cool…

– Last Updated: Mar-13-06 4:55 AM EST –

Then we're all making fashion statements and not just the OC folks. Keyholes are for folks with bigger feet and whatever else then me. ;)

Ultimately, you should go out with what you feel comfortable and confident in. The last is not to be understated. More then half the game is mental anyway.

sing

I Gotta Ask Some More…
What’s the advantage of legs straight vs a little splayed?



And I REALLY don’t get the foamed bulkhead thing. Do footpegs bother some people? Aren’t you screwed if you loan your boat to a person with different length legs? Aren’t you risking breaking the bulkhead?



Enquiring minds…

Thoughts

– Last Updated: Mar-13-06 6:26 AM EST –

Straight vs splayed -- no particular advantage. Matter of individual confort. Some folks lack the hamstring flexibility to have straight leg position and are better off with a splayed position.

Footpegs are more desirable if more than one person is using the boat. My loaner boats all have footpegs. My personal boats have bulkhead footrest. If I use foot pegs, it's generally Yakima alums which provide a more solid and sure platform. The Keepers have been known to pop off the track on braces and rolls. This has been noted by different folks. A foam bulkhead can be made to match the degree of cant that is most comfortable to the individual. Also, you don't have to worry about slipping off the peg or having the peg move at a critcal moment, like during a pitch pole or a drop. Also, because the bulkhead goes across, you can actually move your legs around and still maintain some connection. With footpegs, sometimes when you move your legs around to stretch, you can actually hit the lever that holds the peg in place, resulting in knocking the footpeg out of place. Trying to get it back to the right place can be challenging while you're on the water.

Again, it's one of those things about what kind of water you like to paddle. I think the perference for many paddlers in roughter conditions, for the personal boats, is for a bulkhead instead of footpegs. In the ww arena, most of the newer boats avoid footpegs and use instead an moveable bulkhead. This gives adjustability and, at the same time, a surer platform for the feet for rougher water.

sing

re: OC=comfy
I have a bum knee. Interestingly, I always thought that a keyhole cockpit would be far more comfortable to enter, and to allow for more movement for my leg. After paddling an OC I discovered I could easily place more of the stress on my upper thigh rather than my knee, and I also had more freedom of movement for my legs.



So, I built a large keyhole cockpit for my last boat. I am now working on an sof, and will put in a OC on my next stripper as well.



Who woulda thunk it?

Bob

Why is it…
…that it’s somehow OK for people to put down ocean cockpits as mere “fashion statements” or “tradition and nostalgia”? If you don’t like them, fine, but these dismissive put-downs are BS. I prefer ocean cockpits because for me, they’re more functional. That’s true for other people who prefer them as well. I don’t know of anyone who considers “fashion” or “tradition” to be their overriding concern.



I can just imagine the uproar if an ocean cockpit paddler epoused the view that “keyholes were only for fat, lazy paddlers that can’t be bothered to to learn to use a proper cockpit”, or something to that effect. Of course, that’s not true either and such an assertion would serve no purpose other than to inflame people in the keyhole camp.



We each have our preferences and that’s good. Why can’t we discuss the pro’s and con’s of each without resorting to insulting or demeaning comments? The point is to present useful information so that someone who’s considering either one knows about them both and why their proponents prefer them.

That still doesn’t provide…

– Last Updated: Mar-13-06 9:13 AM EST –

...knee/thigh support across the full width of the deck, like an ocean cockpit does. That's probably the single most important advantage the the ocean cockpit; you can move your legs around anywhere across the width of the boat. It offer numerous leg positions, which can provide muscle relief during long periods in the seat. It also enables you to use techniques such as offsetting yourself in the seat when you're in situations where you need to edge the boat continually, as in a beam wind. That can reduce or eliminate the need for corrective strokes, making paddling more comfortable and efficient. I've experienced numerous occasions where it was most efficient to paddle with one leg near the gunwale and the other near the center of the boat and I do it automatically now. You can't do that with a keyhole cockpit, no matter how low the deck or how narrow the beam is, since you still have the gap in the middle.

The downside to this is that when I get into a keyhole cockpit boat, I have a tendency to fall out during rolling and other maneuvers where I move my legs around without thinking. It's good for a laugh, though.

More useful deck area, too
In comparison, there’s ~10"-12" more useable foredeck in front of you with an OC and the deck cords or bungees are much easier to reach. If you need a chart, it’s right in front of you where you can easily read it while paddling. Although I don’t use a kneed tube, I do find the additional under-deck storage area to be a handy place to mount a pump or other gear.

A few more points

– Last Updated: Mar-13-06 9:34 AM EST –

Straight legs allow one to paddle lower volume, lower windage boats. The lower the foredeck, the less comfortable splayed legs become. Whether you prefer that type of boat is another question, but for those of us that do, straight legs are a necessity.

Addtionally, paddling with straight legs is more relaxing for me. When I'm just cruising along, I find I can just rest my legs on the hull much of the time and let the bones transfer my paddling energy to the footrest. No muscular involvement is necessary and less energy is expended. Minor corrections to the attitude of the boat are accomplished through pushing down with one leg or the other. If I need more control, I simply flex my legs slightly to bring them into contact with the under-deck padding (or the masik in a skin-on-frame boat).

As for padded bulkheads, they provide dramatically increased foot support compared to the 2-3 square inches that (Yakima/Keepers) foot pegs have and allow a variety of foot positions. That can make a big difference in comfort over the course of a day. In the outfitting workshops I run for our club, moving and/or padding bulkheads are among the more popular modifications.