Why not everyone
Rolling requires pretty specific physical skills in some portion, but most of all it requires a mental calmness and focus so that you can get down there and gradually pattern the body response. For some it comes almost naturally, but for most it takes a good bit of time and reinforcement to really be available for a real life emergency. A huge array of things can stymie success, from cold water that tends stiffens people up to a simple lack of comfort or confidence that you (the paddler) will be able to pull this thing off once you are hanging upside down. Or claustrophobia - being under the water is OK, but staying stuck in the boat (necessary to get a roll) is another matter entirely.
Re sea kayaking - the last is hugely more common than a lot of more advanced paddlers realize. Most people who have this problem will go over a few times in their first skills classes, get anxious as heck, and decide that rolling is just not for them. Or, for many guys who have trouble isolating the hip snap, they get to where they can get up with a paddle float but give on going further because they get discouraged.
It is astounding to me how unaware many advanced paddlers are of how this really operates - I’ve had to clarify endless times that it is about staying in the boat, not being under water per se.
It seems to me to be a more common issue among women. Regardless of gender, paddlers who stop trying become pretty much invisible to the advanced paddlers because they are no longer in classes and working on this. So you have a huge dichotomy - a core of sea kayakers who can roll, and over time usually pretty well, and a larger group who isn’t trying for it.
Since rolling is also a gateway skill - if you can roll it is easier to take chances on braces and sculling because you can get right up again without swimming - those who can roll and practice religiously often have better other skills for tough conditions. Which splits the crowd even more…
Personally I am one of the claustrophobic ones. I did get over it, have a fairly reliable onside roll (if not always pretty) and just need a few minutes of someone’s bow one of these paddle nights to start really getting my offside snap into shape. But it took me a couple of years of steadily habituating myself to being upside down and indulging some almost superstitious inclinations to be able to pop a few rolls on a given paddle, regardless of the location. I know a number of people I’ve spent time in classes with over that time have fallen away and decided they weren’t going to worry about it.
It is a blast by the way - a good one feels like the stuff I did when I was a kid playing in surf at the Jersey shore.
Because
Why not everyone? Because they have all that stuff in their heads!!!
All valid and not uncommon points/issues - but all counterproductive. We each do what we need to based on our individual issues/differences - but it’s a huge mistake to focus on the negatives. Rolling is not that complicated - or difficult - if approached in a simple and relaxed way.
There is a reason the instructors/videos/faster learners do not focus on all that: None of it rolls the boat! Keep it simple! If your main focus is overcoming a bunch of self introduced obstacles, of course the road will be long and bumpy.
“Most people who have this problem will go over a few times in their first skills classes, get anxious as heck, and decide that rolling is just not for them.” Probably so - but I have to wonder why they don’t at that point also ask if paddling is for them? Pretty irresponsible to rely on luck or the group to save you because you can’t save yourself but still want to be out there.
There are many good paddlers that don’t roll. I’m not saying it’s mandatory, but learning non-rolling rescues takes just as much inverted/wet time - so I doubt those folks are doing much of that stuff either. I see learning these things as being part of the package. There are other options for recreation if people have issues they can’t or don’t want to get past.
Not trying to slam anyone (certainly not Celia who has worked hard for her roll so obviously values it) - but there is a basic theme that pops up on these boards that “it’s all good” - when it’s not. It’s OK to remind others that many don’t roll - and that learning is different for each of us - but I think we should be careful when it starts to sound like it’s OK not to work on these basic skills.
It’s just another stroke!
Definitely
Yes Lee, I will definitely do that. I had some friends ask me if I would teach them “how to kayak” and I came up feeling very inadequate. I think I know the basics of paddling, but I should check that against good formal instruction. You never know, if I am doing some basic thing wrong, I would like to correct it, especially before teaching someone else.
I wanted to wait until I got the boat I will likely use the most, then take lessons in that boat. I will be getting that soon, so I will defintely heed your advice.
Lou
Very perceptive
Celia,you have an innate understanding of the mental challenge of rolling.Why do we have such a hard time overriding the fight and flight mechanism’s in our brain? Many paddlers might be very reluctant to practise rolls 10 feet from the dock at the cottage but would think nothing of taking a running leap off the same dock wearing only a swimming suit.It’s the only boating sport than I’m aware of where the participants capsize intentionally.
Kind of like jumping out of a perfectly good airplane,it doesn’t make sense to the “survival”
circuitry of our brain.Fear of entrapment is very real.
But it sure is fun.
Cheers
Bert
Re-entry
Re-entry skills are more important than the roll. It’s a cool thing to know but not as important. At least that is what my instructors with 40 years experience between tham taught me. They said don’t waste money taking the roll classes that they taught because re-entry is more reliable than the roll. As you may have noticed no one giving advice talks about using the roll with a loaded kayak. I’d like to know where anyone read that 90% of kayak fatalities where due to lack of knowing how to roll. I read in Sea Kayaker that knowing only how to roll can get you killed.
wow, you’re still believe that crap?
Pahsimeroi, you've consistently stated your negative opinion in regards to rolling which is completely wrong and ignorant. I've rolled in whitewater haystacks, holes, surf zone waves, etc. How are your self rescues in those situations? I'm nearly 100%. If you flip off your SOT going through a wave train, what do you do? There is no chance for a re-entry and you might be swimming through strainers, keepers, undercuts, etc. On the other hand, someone with a confident roll, will simply right themselves and be on their way. Also in regards to reentries, because many reentries are typically required when learning to roll, most paddlers who can roll also are more proficient in other reentry techniques including paddle float, reenter and roll, cowboy scramble, etc. Regarding a loaded kayak, once more you are showing your ignorance. A loaded kayak is actually easier to roll than an empty kayak. While it does roll slightly slower, it requires much less effort. Your instructors don't have a clue either.
disclaimer: This harsh response is for the most part due to the fact that Pahsimeroi has been trolling rolling threads for almost a year now.
Re-entry vs. rolling
By far the easiest and fastest re-entry technique is the re-entry AND ROLL.
Holy Moly
Hey Pash
I’m a geat fan of sit on tops and just climbing back on but I can tell you it’s much better to just flip back up and keep paddling than to be swimming around your boat when bad things are happening. You need to ask for a refund from these wise sages that taught you that knowing how to roll was worthless.
Utter BS
I’m just going to consider that post a troll, because anyone who has the vaguest idea what they are talking about knows how untrue that is.
Seriously, pash, if your instructors seriously believe that, it’s time to start looking for new teachers.
90% of kayak fatalities
judgement must rank high on the list. And the lack thereof. Depending on the kayak and the conditions deciding to venture forth WITHOUT sufficient skills reflects a lack of judgement,that kills.
I’m wondering if your use of the word “kayak” assumes a certain kind in a certain set of conditions?
Re-entry (over top) v. Roll
OK - now I’m going to start it…
Even though I have knocked myself out to get a roll, I see situations where an over-the-top re-entry or assisted would be just fine IF the paddler always restricted themselves calm, flat warm water with a shoreline close by. The assisted is best because even in a flat pond someone could potentially blow a shoulder, but in these conditions most people with decent swimming skills could get back OK. I used to practice swimming on just one or two limbs for fun - it is time-consuming but it’s not a bar to making progress even without a PFD. (And I do believe that no one should ever be in any boat without decent swimming skills - though generations of fishermen have disagreed.)
The problem is that eventually, if you really love kayaking, even the most reserved paddlers will probably take themselves and usually their rec boat out in conditions that are not calm, warm and protected. (Myself included when we started.) You figure that you’ll get away with it this time, and usually you do. Which experience makes for a lousy teacher unless you step back and really anticipate the mess you could have gotten yourself into - not a majority habit.
At this point - I agree with the above. No roll, no work towards a roll or advanced skills, you are looking for trouble.
I am not sure whether it helps or hurts that a good boat tends to be better at staying upright than the human in it. It could be argued that this encourages less than smart behavior.
Good points, there
Personally, I decided to learn to roll because it really is a lot of trouble getting back in your boat after a capsize. I like to surf and play in the rough stuff, and a capsize out there puts a lot of responsibility onto your paddling partners, and has the potential to endanger all of you.
Definately, there are times when you encounter conditions which are too much to handle. What if, what if, what if…
Oh, and my boat is pretty much always loaded - I’ve been caught once on an island 1/2 a mile or so from ‘land’ for a time which was longer than I was comfortable with. Rolling a loaded boat is not too much different from rolling an unladen boat: in fact, it’s possible to roll with someone on your back deck, or clinging to the bow!
Although I rely on a roll (I don’t always stay upright, so I practice rolls for real!), I always stay in practice with the other rescues: all instructors (should) do this. T-rescues, paddle float, cowboy, renter and roll, bow rescues, towing, etc. If fact, the instructors I know are always experimenting and playing what-if scenarios. It’s fun, and you know something is or isn’t going to work under certain conditions (for your own personal capability).
Not everyone can roll, nor has the desire to, and the chance of them actually needing to roll may be particularly negligible. Hopefully they’ve learned some other techniques (personally, I hate the cowboy rescue - just can’t do it. If I do manage it, I’m exhaused - I practice it, though).
Bottom line: rolling is an effective self rescue, it is fun, inspires confidence, keeps you cool on a hot day, and is considered a sport itself!
Then There’s Gilligan’s Island Syndrome
In addition to Celia’s wise advice, I can say with experience that a nice easy trip can end up with the “…weather started getting rough…”.
On the one occasion that this happened to me, I asked myself “…could I perform a successful assisted rescue in these conditions where I was struggling myself…”. My answer was uncertain. I would have had to take what I felt were good sized waves on my side to approach either of my partners, and although I would try, I might capsize myself. I also doubted whether my flatwater practiced paddle float self rescue would have worked in these conditions.
I still have a lot to learn…Lou
speaking of Gilligan’s Island
I have a tendancy to start whistling or singing the theme to Gilligan’s island when I’m paddling through waves or surf. It calms me down and allows me to enjoy the rough conditions!
needing to roll
"Do I need to learn to roll?" is a topic that keeps popping up here. My stock answer is that if you paddle in conditions where coming out of your boat doesn’t put you at risk, then no, you don’t. But if being in the water is more hazardous to your health & safety than being in your boat, learning to roll is a good thing.
Learning to roll makes most capsizes a non-event, which makes frees you to play in all sorts of ways.
exactly
that’s one of the best self-checking questions, “can I do my rescue in these conditions?,if I can’t,then what?”
On a trip the same question was used except it was “if at the end of this 8mile crossing in 20mph wind and someone needed a rescue would I have enough energy to pull it off for myself or them?”,the answer was “I don’t want to find out”,so we changed our destination and course.
Sit down and think about it.
Rolling and re-entry skills are not inconsistent. Knowing one does not mean you can’t know the other. In fact being able to roll will strengthen your re-entry skills. Coming out of your boat (or off of your boat) is the most dangerous thing you can do and is always a last resort. Even with a SOT. I agree with the others. Your teachers are full of it.
there must be
some changes in translation from what those “40yrs experience” teachers said to what is being posted. It just doesn’t add up.
maybe
they were trying to say that you still need alternatives if your roll fails. No argument there.
I’d also suggest that if people spent as much time working on braces as they do on rolls, the need to roll would greatly diminish. But it’s much easier to learn to brace if you can roll up when you miss…
The best thing about rolling is that…
chicks dig it!