Let me introduce myself, I used to be craig @ mohawk…now I,m just Craig. My brother just aquired 2 old classic Dancer kayaks and Insist I take him on WW for his first time. Now I’ve always open boated and never really kayaked before. Se we take one of the kayaks and an Old Jensen 14 solo I have to the Wekiva river for a test run. Jay does just fine in the yak, then its my turn to put the skirt on. Well, I couldn’t figure out what to do with the blade at the other end of the shaft! And forget the roll.
So this morning I go out to my shed, grab an old 48" single blade and head to the river. WOW, it was great sittin on my butt, in a skirt, paddling a kayak with a single blade. Almost found my old roll too! It seems much easier to cross stroke that to pull the other blade down and rotate to proper angle (T grip is like a dial for proper angle). Since I have no more OC1 playboats at my disposal, I think when we hit the nanty in a couple of weeks thats what I’m going to do, Yak single blade!
My question is, am I nuts? Has anyone done this before? At almost 50, it feels much better on my knees and ankles. I’ve read an acticle by Mark Molino on this topic, so it sounds good to me! Thanks for input,
Craig in FL
whatever floats your boat 
NM
.
Why so many questions?
Are you nuts?
Could be. Many canoeists use double blades, I think because it does not require a correction stroke, effectively allowing more power to be applied to forward motion.
Have others tried this?
Odds are that they have. Consider for a moment the Rob Roy that was at Raystown last year. The seat is mounted on the floor and I sat with my legs straight out and paddled with a single blade. Yes, the boat is classified as a canoe, but as far as I am concerned it could have been a rec kayak.
Also consider the story of one of my canoe buddies. He tried a kayak and just couldn’t get the double bladed paddling. He reported that he became so frustrated that he broke down the two piece paddle and finished the run using canoe strokes with half a kayak paddle.
50 and stressed knees and ankles?
I’m 56 and my knees and ankles get sore, but for me, I think it is mainly not being conditioned to it. If your joints are sound, try sitting on a basketball when you are doing some routine activity like computing or TV watching. If you build up to it, you can probably condition your legs so that they don’t bother you in the canoe. The guy I just mentioned, who couldn’t paddle with the double blade, he had a canoe in the family room last time I was at his house. I asked about it. He said it was for TV watching so he (or was it his girlfriend?) can get acclimated to the canoeing position prior to the season.
Regardless, never mind the questions and do it the way that suits your style, body, and skills. As long as you are having fun, it’s all good.
~~Chip Walsh, Gambrills, MD
Worry more about the Dancer
Sorry, just kidding but couldn't resist. Don't see those around too often these days.
I know plenty of guys that C1 in ww kayaks, abeit kneeling. I know plenty of guys that sit and paddle single bladded, albeit mostly outrigger racers and native duggout canoe racers. I can't think of a reason not to go single bladed in a ww kayak seated. I suspect it may limit your access to the range of motion that kneeling would give you, (which I think is one of the conventional reasons for kneeling) but your comfort level may make up for that(?)
Let us know how it works for you.
Cheers
Personally, i couldn’t do it…
I have tried sitting in a Native racing canoe on the seat and using single blade in a ww yak but i just don’t have the stomach muscles for it. I also agree, that using a single blade, seated in a ww yak would be not give me full body motion, reach or power. I am thinking too that the paddle would have to be quite short…Certainly for me again, in a roll situaion my body would scream loud and clearly “ouch.” If it works for you… why not…
As a very experienced C-1 paddler,
I can easily use a single blade in a kayak. But, not a dancer!?! Not a design worth preserving.
But kayak paddles are definitely superior. You can drive upstream in powerful currents with a kayak paddle. You can surf more effectively in ocean waves. Verlen Kruger was wrong. Kayak paddles are superior whenever forward drive is the goal.
Thanks,
Thanks for the response’s guys. And Mike, good to hear from you again.I think I’ll will use the single blade on such short notice. I’ll be doing very light stuff due to the fact I’ll be guiding my novice brother thru some very easy sections of the river. But I will keep honing my skills with the double blade.
Single blade trumps double for forward d
Keelhauled,
You have the right idea being opened minded when it comes to paddling!
My experience is the single blade is more efficient than the double blade. I found this very hard to believe at first being more of a kayaker than a canoer.
Here is what discovered.
#1 The kayak paddle weighs more than a canoe paddle. My ZRE paddle weighs 8.5 oz and they also carry a paddle weighing 7.5 oz. There is no kayak paddle that weighs even close.
#2 the paddle speed is slower. For example if I am paddling upstream or against a fast tide I am able to get more strokes with my canoe paddle than a kayak paddle. When finishing the kayak stroke you must bring the blade all the way across the boat and as soon as that stroke is finished it is back over again. Which brings me to my third point
#3 fatigue. The kayak stroke wears me out quicker than the canoe stroke. It is not a huge difference but after 12 hours of paddling I have more energy if I was using a single blade vs double.
#4 power. I can get a stronger bite on the water and go further with less effort.
#5 look at results. G2d said. “Verlen Kruger was wrong. Kayak paddles are superior whenever forward drive is the goal.”
Kruger has set nearly every world record with a single bladed paddle. Verlen paddled UP the entire Colorado river, Mississippi river, paddled from Alaska to Cape horn south America and the list goes on. He has logged in 100,000 life time miles paddling a canoe!
I am over 5,500 miles into a canoe trip right now on a short layover until next month. Efficiently was important and I kept my kayak paddle for about 500 miles before I gave it away. I just had no use for it anymore. The double blade paddle is better when landing in an ocean surf, but other than that for me with my canoe (The sea wind which Verlen designed) the single blade is better. The saying “different strokes for different folks” is true.
I don’t know how much you post here, but watch out for posters like G2D “But kayak paddles are definitely superior. You can drive upstream in powerful currents with a kayak paddle….”
He says he is an experienced c-1paddler. But the reality of it he is probably just some guy who may or not of even raced. Based on his comments he does not seem like an experienced paddler. He did not leave his sighn the post so there is no way to even goggle his name to see how good he really is. My guess is he is not anybody.
Good luck and most important be safe and have fun. Something else you might try if you already don’t is take both a canoe and kayak paddle with you.
John Latecki Jr
http://www.fightingms.org/
Impressive post
but I’m far from convinced… but I’m kind of a nobody myself.
Cheers
Have raced. Own a slalom c-1
and several kayaks. Note that Davey Hearn mopped up the c-1 class back in the early days using a kayak paddle, until the practice was outlawed.
Anyone that wants to paddle for very long periods like Verlen is welcome to draw personal conclusions. I am talking about distances up to, say, 2000 meters. Same hull, kayak paddle will win every time.
I expect you to go back to paddling.net
and post an apology. Just check my reply to your post above. You can believe anything you want about canoe versus kayak paddles, but you are not going to last long on paddling.net if you bolster your arguments by public guesswork about the experience and knowledge of others.
By the way, do the times of solo marathon kayakers and solo marathon canoers support your argument? Just wondering.
Most of us are nobody
Well, everybody is somebody, but in terms of paddling fame and skill, I’m down there in the nobody category.
I don’t understand point #2. When I complete a stroke with the double blade, the blade that is out of the water is right where it needs to be to start the stroke on the opposite side of the boat. I just drop the blade and I’m getting power again with only a fraction of a second’s pause.
Not so sure about point 4, either. The power in both single and double blade strokes comes from torso rotation, and my torso is what it is and gives power the same without regard to the blade.
I suppose the tracking capability of the boat is a huge influence, but the single bladed stroke requires some kind of correction, unless you are switching sides with it, which would obviate that dubious point number 2. Or maybe your canoe has a rudder, and you don’t need a correction. Some amount of effort is lost in the correction, which the double blader does not lose.
I am aware that single blading with the hyper light paddles has a mechanical advantage, in that the paddle’s floatation holds up the paddler’s arm. So the question is, does that mechanical advantage offset the power loss of correction strokes. Perhaps in the case of truly expert paddlers it does. But for a nobody, like me, I think I get more strokes, power and boat speed from the double blade. Typically, when I break out the double blade, I drop my single blading fellow paddlers (nobodies) “out the back door.” In the future, I’ll tell them to quit complaining and use their superior single blades to catch up!
~~Chip Walsh, Gambrills, MD (which is nowhere, right?)
I’m going the other way!
I recently entered the world of C-1’s for the comfort of kneeling and I’m not getting any younger (48). I used to kayak guite a bit, but I never felt comfortable in the seated position. I feel much more comfortable and I’m able to be more agressive with my strokes in the kneeling position. Like other posts have mentioned, it seems to be just a personal choice.
Taken wrong
Please don’t think I am saying you and others are nobody’s. That was directed ay G2D for his comment about Verlen. To single out an individual who holds so many records and is in the canoe hall of fame and say he is wrong with nothing to back it up makes him a nobody. Disagreement is one thing but making things personal is another.
I have no doubt the kayak paddle is more efficient for you and others. For me paddling my sea wind I do better with a single blade. Verlens boats have a lot to do with the records as well. Again please don’t think that I feel people who disagree with me are nobody’s.
John
sorry ?
“”you are not going to last long on paddling.net if you bolster your arguments by public guesswork about the experience and knowledge of others.”””
Now lets be fair. I don’t go around making judgments on people for no reason. How did you put it
“kayak paddles are definitely superior. You can drive upstream in powerful currents with a kayak paddle. You can surf more effectively in ocean waves. Verlen Kruger was wrong. Kayak paddles are superior whenever forward drive is the goal.”
I already explained about Verlen in my last post “Time and distance showed the rest of the world that Verlen had done his homework thoroughly. The design as well as the construction method he devised withstood an incredible test.”
– CANOE MAGAZINE, October, 1984.
Don’t you think if the kayak paddle was more efficient Verlen would have used during his 28,000 mile canoe trip?
Did you really think no one was going to say anything to you? To come on and post and say Verlen Kruger is wrong without giving any facts or reasons to back it up pretty much takes the public guess work out of how much experience and knowledge you have. That is like saying Michael Jordon was wrong about basketball. This is the internet and I really don’t have any other way to judge people by what they write. Saying a man in the Canoeing hall of fame is wrong.
“”By the way, do the times of solo marathon kayakers and solo marathon canoers support your argument? Just wondering.””
Those are different boats.
All the records below were set with a single blade by Verlen the guy you said is wrong. It is one thing to come in and disagree with someone but to do it against someone like Verlen with no facts is something different. I was just responding and making observations based on what you wrote. To say a multiple world record holder and hall of famer is wrong with no facts even deservers the response you got. If you had something more credible than just saying your experienced might help. I mean come on you can’t call out one of the greatest and hide behind a G2D screen name and think it will go unchecked. Is it too much to ask who you are and what is your experience is? How did you do racing? do you have any records? What are you basing your views on.
I hope you don’t think I am being rude because that is not my intent. I would not of responded if you had not mentioned the fact “Verlen is wrong” and added something to go on.
John Latecki Jr
http://www.fightingms.org/
Longest Canoe Journey Ever
28,043 miles (Ultimate Canoe Challenge)
Fastest time Entire Missouri River (2,315 miles)
33 Days, 18 Hrs, 45 Min (Three Forks, MT to Miss. Riv., St. Louis, MO.
UP the entire Grand Canyon (240 miles)
23 days (despite the ranger’s disapproval…and disbelief!)
Mississippi River World Record (Was just beaten by Bob Bradford & Clark Eid in a kruger canoe.)
2,043 miles from Lake Itasca to Mile Zero, Gulf of Mexico in 23 days, 10 hours, 20 minutes. April 27 to May 20, 1984 – A Guinness World Record
the list goes on…
you are somebody lol…
Chip,
Please don’t think I meant you were a nobody! The only reason I called G2D out on the carpet is because of him saying Verlen was wrong with no facts or anything.
“I don’t understand point #2. When I complete a stroke with the double blade, the blade that is out of the water is right where it needs to be to start the stroke on the opposite side of the boat. I just drop the blade and I’m getting power again with only a fraction of a second’s pause.”
I see your point and I may have worded the other post wrong. I guess a lot of people kayaking make some adjustments towards when switching. You are doing well is all you have to do is drop your blade to start. At the end of some paddler’s strokes they find themselves having to bring the blade down and across to start the next stroke. It sounds like you have been paddling awhile and know what works for you.
“Not so sure about point 4, either. The power in both single and double blade strokes comes from torso rotation, and my torso is what it is and gives power the same without regard to the blade.”
That may be true and I have no proof to back it up other than my own experience. I can lean down and gain more leverage from a single blade paddle. I do notice a big difference and it takes me less effort. It is not a big difference, but if you paddling week after week month after month and year after year you look for little extras. I am still am a kayaker, just on several thousand mile trips I use the single blade.
It is neat to see how some people get more out of the boats they are paddling than others. Paddling is like an art form and the kayak stroke is more therapeutic to me than a canoe stroke.
You are right there are many factors that go into paddling. The most important thing to remember is to have fun and of course safety. The argument could go on and I am sure it is different for different boats. I was more or less basing this on ultra distance paddling and my own experience. The Kruger canoe with a single bladed paddle seems to be the fastest way go several hundred miles and almost everyone starts out using a double blade and switch to a single. Again this is only for a kruger boat. I really did not want to get into a big argument and would not of jumped in without the reference to Verlen.
John Latecki
http://www.fightingms.org/
From personal
experience there is no doubt that single bladers are better looking, and smarter.
You owe me an apology for saying
things about me based on your lack of success at “goggle” [sic] research rather than talking evidence.
What about solo marathon canoeing and kayaking times? Care to state some times and some fact?
What Verlen Kruger did showed things about Verlen Kruger. It didn’t change anything about what times and efficiencies can be achieved with a canoe versus a kayak paddle.
And I say that as someone who has been canoeing since 1973, and who prefers a canoe paddle.
I’m in total agreement with…
Stavemaker and Baldpaddler.
Hope this helps you G2D
I am still not convinced I owe you an apology. You didn’t provide any talking evidence. Sure now that I called you out your scrambling to find something to back up your argument. Canoes and kayaks are two different types of boats. You keep bringing up marathon canoeing and kayaking. They use different boats and the races are very short races most of the time less than 100 miles. When I look at performance and results I stick to world records and almost every long distance world record is held by a canoe.
Unless your trying to break a record it really does not matter how you paddle as long as you enjoy it. However when you are trying to break a record every short cut is important and for me, Verlen Kruger and many others the single blade is the way to go. Kayak paddles are much heaver to start with and you have that extra blade swinging through the air catching wind. I realize you can feather the paddle, but it still catches some wind. These are things that most people would not even notice but after extended periods of time paddling (several weeks) the little things start to make a difference.
This topic is not worth arguing over. You will probably find if you don’t make things personal with people you will run into less resistance. Also it helps to have facts to back up what your saying for example “But kayak paddles are definitely superior… Verlen Kruger was wrong. Kayak paddles are superior whenever forward drive is the goal.’
Remember in the future to try and back up your points with facts or at least have the guts to stand behind what you say with a name instead of hiding and last don’t make things personal unless you want people to get personal with you. I have asked you several times who you are and what you’re basing your experience on? Canoeing since 1973 does not reveal a lot. How often do you paddle? Once a week, once a month?
John Latecki Jr