Nice boats. Tsunamis are comfortable but barges in comparison. You skinny guys get all the good stuff.
I think a Tempest 165 would be a better fit for you, if you like the Tempest. Paddling a bigger boat requires more effort and for me a wider beam = a less efficient stroke.
Yeah, I find that I tend to settle into a slower cadence naturally. I prefer long, slow strokes, at a moderately high angle. I’ll change it up and paddle faster at times, but I gravitate towards low cadence. Maybe that’s why I’m not a big fan of Greenland paddles. It seems the GP paddles best at a higher cadence. Also, I don’t like the feel of the forward cant, but if I don’t do it, the paddle scratches through the water. Maybe it’s just a matter of getting used to a GP, then I’d like it more.
4.85 mph in a Tsunami seems pretty fast. When I had mine, I could do 4 mph for a little while, but it wasn’t paddling at a relaxed pace. I tried an Ikelos at one point, but it seemed to be overkill. A lot of posts on the forums call that paddle a shoulder killer.
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I’m an a big proponent of small paddles. I got the 7.75 zre canoe paddle (their 2nd smallest size) and 650cm wing paddle for my surfski (620cm would be tiny for a wing, 800+ is huge for comparison)
Unless you’re Olympian strong, sprinting short distances, or steering an OC6, I see no benefit to large paddles and highly recommend you downsize. This applies regardless of boat size.
Aliexpress has carbon knockoffs for half price that are good quality
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It’d be interesting to try a 165, but I don’t think I’d buy one sight unseen. From what I’ve read, it’s quite a bit smaller. TBH, while the 170 may have a lot of storage space, the cockpit itself doesn’t feel that big to me. If I lay back in the seat and stretch my legs out straight, my feet touch the front bulkhead. My main worry with going to something like the 165 is the deck height. My problem with the Virgo is that it’s a tight fit for my feet with shoes on. Not even sure I could paddle it in the winter with boots. Also, from what I hear, the 165 is less stable. I’d definitely try one if given the chance, but don’t know of any in the area.
@Buffalo_Alice The Ikleos my be bordering on too big, that or my form is not as good as I think it is. As sometimes I’ll notice slight flutter.
Normally I paddle with a 60deg feather. When I got the Ikleos, I had to drop back to 45 deg feather or I was flutter city.
last time I went out with it, few weeks back (of course it was a lazy paddle at 4.85mph average over 5 miles.) I found I was fluttering at 45deg so I went back to 60 and no flutter.
So it could be many things, the Accent and the Aquabound paddles are flat blades (Eg: they are either Fiberglass lamination of Fiberfilled polypro lamination.) so they’re pretty thin.
The Ikleos is Carbon fiber over a foam core in the blade construction so it seems to have neutral to positive buoyancy in the blades. where as the other two are definitely negative buoyancy. So that could have contributed to what I experienced.
I could also be that the shape of the blade is angled differently (I cant remember the term for this.) making the other blades a bit more forgiving.
It could be my Stroke could use some polish and being that blade is less forgiving I notice it.
Or it could be that it’s almost too much paddle. OR all of the above.
652 is definately the best spot for me so far, but the accent has a higher swing weight so I was looking for something lighter than 28oz with a lighter swing weight, and the Ikleos has that in spades, and is overall lighter to boot too. 24oz.
And on 10-15mile races I find that that how the paddles is weighted starts to become more important than how heavy it is overall.
but since I’ve only had 4 outings with the Ikleos, I cant say weather 691cm2 is too much yet. Ive yet to put it through a long haul highspeed run.
@Jyak You are welcome to, I know you wanted to try a Greenland paddle So when we meetup I’ll bring both the CarbonFiber Greenland Paddle and the Ikleos. for you to play with.
@E.T I hear this alot, but it is what it is. calculating the boats hull speed, it should be around 6 knots (6.90 mph.) now humans generally cant do this or maintain this speed for any distance so I find a pretty good rule of thumb is take your 80% of your hull speed and that should give you roughly a comfortable all day pace for your boat. (assuming you are in a reasonable paddling shape.)
so for me .8x6.90= 5.5mph. and pretty much I find myself tooling about that speed or less generally 5.0 to 5.2 for anything over 10 miles.
This was borne out by my 15miler in 2021 I did it in 3.5 hours (Give or take a few minutes.) however I had a 30 minute stop to repair my broken rudder cable. so Technically 3 hours of paddling.
frankly the boat is faster than most people think, heck half the time I don’t think I’m moving until I dip a finger in the water to actually feel how fast.
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I don’t think I’ve ever hit 6.9 mph in the Tempest, or any boat for that matter, without a wave or wind assist. I guess maybe I am not as fast as some, but I can’t imagine paddling along at 5.5 mph unless I’m sprinting. Even then, I’m not sure that’s doable. Next time I’m out, I’ll have to do a quick sprint and watch the “speedometer” on my phone. I’m sure I can hit 5.5 mph, but I would it would not be a relaxing paddle. I’d imagine maintaining that speed would require a decent cadence, much higher than I normally paddle.
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Very helpful, thank you. I too tend toward high angle vs low and endurance vs sprint. I don’t race, but I do like moving it along. I fear the Ikelos at almost 700 cm2 is too big for me. It’s pricing takes my breath away too.
I’ve been comparing the Werner Shuna, Aqua Bound Whiskey, and Accent Fit (one of their relatively new foam core models), but they’re all in the 615 cm2 range. I don’t see a 652 cm2 paddle in Accent’s lineup any longer. Cannon, their sister company does have one, but I’m a bit skeptical of how its glass reinforced nylon blade will perform.
Of course, weight and surface area are just the beginning; other aspects of blade geometry and factors related to the paddler’s specific stroke and design of the boat all influence how a paddle feels and performs. Fortunately, the search is half the fun!
My 2 cents worth:
(I may be overcharging at that price too. I am no expert. )
Jyak and I am going back and forth now discussing details about characteristics of different paddles and I am learning a LOT about what works well for me and a few things that are lacking.
It may be because I don’t know, and it may be that I don’t know WHAT I don’t know, but so far I have found myself to be the odd-man out, when it comes to the rules of thumb about paddles.
I do find it comforting in speaking to a few full-time and part time professionals in paddling sports and they have all told me that rules of thumb are just that. Basically they are averages. But to get an average you sum up the number of subjects preferences, and divide the total by the number of subjects. In short, there ARE going to be those that do best with a paddle which do not fall into the middle ground of that rule of thumb, that average.
I am short at 5’ 6" but pretty strong for an old guy. I have found from making my own Greenland and Aleut paddles that for me at least, the longer ones do better for me and are easier to brace, scull and turn with than those that are of “correct length” .
BUT… using Euro-style paddles I find that a bit shorter seems easier for me. Not a radical difference — but noticeable.
My guess (and that’s what it is so far…A guess) is that the longer blades of the wood paddles give more surface to catch water with------ by being longer. They also give that leverage farther from the kayak, so the movement of the hull is greater from such a long “spoke on the wheel”.
But with the Euro paddles, once the bade is under water it is giving all the catch it can. So if a Euro-style blade is 20 inches long and it’s 21" in the water, more submerged depth gives it no more traction. Yes, extension with Euro paddles does give more support by simply mechanical principles but they give the same traction at any distance from the kayak.
Now, the long GL and Alaskan paddles are “all blade”, with the shaft (loom) being short, so the more you put in the water, the better they work.
I have one GL paddle that’s 9 feet and one Aleut paddle that’s 9 feet 1 inch long. In the biggest waves and the biggest chop I have been in so far, the 9 foot paddles were the easiest to use and the best of all of them for rolling. So I have come to REALLY like them.
That’s NOT what I have found recommended however.
So…am I wrong?
It’s possible I am ------------ and I just don’t know enough to correct myself.
But I have GL paddles as short as 6 feet 8 inches and Euros as short as 6 feet 6 inches. I have a GL at 7 feet, one at 7.5 feet and two at 8 feet… I have several Euros , the 6-1/2 footer mentioned above and also a 210 Cm a 230 Cm a 240 Cm and a 250 Cm. The 240 and the 250 are my best performers but they are FAR better quality then the shorter ones I own, so I can’t say if the length is proper or not. I think they work better because they are better, not because they are longer.
I seem to handle the 210CM, 220 CM and 230 CM a bit quicker, but they don’t seem to be as positive in the water as the 2 good ones. I simply am not a wealthy enough man to try good quality paddles in varying lengths.
One paddle I own is an Aqua Bound Eagle Ray Hybrid in 250 CM and 4 pieces. Next winter I hope to send the blades to the factory and have them fit with a set of shafts to come out at 230 CM — so I can compare the same blades in 2 different length overall next spring.
I have a Warner Kalliste (THANK YOU JOHN!!!) in 240 CM and it’s the lightest paddle in the collection (much lighter then most) and a real joy to use, but it’s been a problem for me because if I put the power to it, it torques rotationally —back and forth in my hands. Clockwise and counterclockwise at a rapid rate. Probably 6-8 times per stroke. I started gripping the shaft wider with my hands, and giving a bit of a grip to it ( a slight squeeze) and that has eliminated about 90% of that feeling, but I can still feel it a little bit. With my wood paddles and my 250 CM Aqua Bound Eagle Ray I leave my grip relaxed and somewhat open. I can’t do that with the Warner.
At a cruising cadence (for me, about 1 stroke per second) I don’t feel it at all. Only if I start to try to go fast with it and get my cadence up to 75 strokes per minute or so, does it get more and more noticeable. Also it does that flutter when I am putting more power to the stroke bucking wind or oncoming waves. The more power I put to a stroke the more I feel it. I am doing MUCH better with it now then when I first got it, so I know it’s simply a matter of learning how to use it, but so far it’s been a bit “too much paddle” for me. I am thinking it may be an experts paddle, and I am not an expert. I may be in a bit over my head.
But I am going to try to raise my ability to the level of the expert, rather then lower my ability to the level of a lesser paddle. I intend to learn how to use it. It screams pure quality to me. But like getting a high quality guitar, simply owning it doesn’t turn you into a rock star.
Tools are great and the best tools are the greatest, but it’s still always a matter of human skill, not equipment.
I don’t yet have that level of skill, but I’ll work on it until I do.
I ended up doing some quick tests today on the river. Using the same paddle (Cyprus), I did a few sprints in my Tempest and Virgo. According to my app, my maximum sustained speeds were as follows:
Tempest
max. sus. speed for 10 sec = 5.8 mph
max sus. speed for 30 sec = 5.4 mph
Virgo
10 sec = 5.3
30 sec = 5
To me, the Virgo sometimes feels faster, but as these tests showed, that’s not the case. It could be because it’s more nimble or it accelerates quicker. Also, when I was going at full speed on the Virgo, it kicked up a hell of a bow wake. Looked cool, but probably wasted energy. The Tempest seemed to cut through the water better.
I think it hit a little over 6 mph in both the Tempest and Virgo, but that was very briefly. Maintaining my top speeds in either boat is not something I’d be doing for a long time. I’m pretty happy just cruising along at 3-4 mph. To me, the Virgo does feel a little easier to paddle (it feels like the paddle takes less force to pull/push with each stroke). However, for that same amount of force, I’m probably traveling slightly slower.
It probably takes less power to drive your Virgo at 3 mph than your Tempest, but the difference is tiny. At 4 mph, the difference is even smaller, and the Tempest may be easier. At 5 mph, as your tests show, you will be tapped out in the Virgo, with a little more push left in the Tempest.
As you note, if your wake is more than a ripple you probably would be faster in a narrower/longer boat.
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The bow wake is a tell-tale sign that you’re spending energy moving water that could be used to move the boat.
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@Buffalo_Alice very true, but it’s an inescapable feature of the boat design. A longer waterline length offers a grearter speed “potential”. Although the length surely increases drag, the extra length offsets some drag because the added bouancy reduces draft. Width or depth also adds a small percent to drag.
If the manufacturer stats are accurate, the P&H Virgo comes in 3 sizes (weigh depends on material):
LV is 14’ long by 22" wide, 50 to 52.9 lbs
MV is 14’ 6" long by 23.2" wide, 56.2 to 57 lbs
HV is 14’ 9" long by 24.5" wide, 61 to 63 lbs
The LVs speed should be close to the 140 Tsunami, if the Virgo can be kept on track. The MV and HV bracket the 145 Tsunami at 14’ 6" by 24.5" wide, 57 lbs. The speed difference within those classes should only vary by a few tenths mph.
The 170 Tempest at 17’ by 22" wide, 57 lbs, should be faster in all paramameters. Its the same weight as the MV, but it’s 2’ 6" longer and 1 1/4" narrower. Comparing the effect that width and length has on speed and acceleration, I’d put money on length having the advantage over both.
I’ve paddle with a GPS most of the time I’ve been kayaking. I won’t disagree that GPS has inaccuracies, but I’ll accept the GPS reading any day over perception or conjecture. There are faster boats, but the 170 Tempest is no slouch. It should easily avg 5.0 to 5.5 mph over 10 miles, hit spikes of 6.4 mph and up to 8 mph with a following wave assists. Too bad it doesn’t come in 23.5 inch widths, because I’d own one. Compared to the 175 Tsunami which is 17’ 6" x 24" wide, 68 lbs. It will get up to speed, but it take patience with a small sq inch blade, then keep it from falling off glide with a higher cadence. You’ll use too much energy if you constantly have to get back to glide in a heavy boat.
I don’t disagree with anything you’ve said. At the same time, my point - that creating a larger bow wake requires more energy than creating a smaller bow wake - remains valid. In a kayak, all energy is supplied by the paddler, so that used to create wake is unavailable to move the boat.
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Absolutely true. I wonder how much better the plastic boats would be if yhe bow and stern were not so blunt. In fact, my sister could guess the speed with reasonable accuracy based on the sound my bow wave was making. I watched the video of the Olympic races and marveled at the lack of bow wave. On the opposite end of the spectrum, the large tankers have the big bulb up front that apparently extends the hull length, but also flattens the bow wave.
Fascinating stuff, and the paddle is just amazing that the earliest forms can even be considered in the same lineup as the most sophosticated paddles made of advanced material. Whether piddling around in a pond or fighting a tidal surge, its all basically a variation of the same thing. Different designs, different skills, but all the same.
I’ve never understood the physics of that bulb tankers have up front. Something else to learn about … someday.
You made me look it up. Interesting, the bulb causes an out of phase second wave that cancels out the first, but only works for large vessels:
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Dang! I was already trying to figure out how to build one for my Cayuga 160!