Paddle size vs boat size

[Jyak]

Correct. It flattens the wave. Hull speed is misunderstood. The formula was devised in 1670 to estimate the speed potential of a warship’s displacement hulls. It’s outdated and has been supplanted by more accurate methods, but close enough to convey the concept that a boat that displaces water gets trapped in a trough between the front wave and the wave created as the “displaced” water returns.

There was a great post recently about the percentage of influence waterline length has on speed vs. width, etc.

The thing to remember is that a longer boat is faster If you have the strength to push it, and a narrow boat is easier to paddle, and some people can paddle faster than others. Most of all, as the boat gets trapped, escaping becomes exponentially harder, so the key as I see it is to manage a steady speed just under the point where the effort reaches that increase. Finding that point is the key to happiness.

The often overlooked point is that the boat has built in limitations. The only way to change that is with the paddler and paddle combinanation. I’m still learning about the paddle that I owned for over 10 years. Don’t take the paddle for granted.

[Celia]

Cyprus is not a huge blade size unless I am way too low on coffee this morning. But 220 cm is on the long side for a paddler of your height in a 170, you also have longer arms thanm much shorter me. So realize your blade is probably digging deeper into the water than it did with the wider boat.

Granted the 170 is on the bigger side, but I suspect the single issue that is most impacting you is the length of the paddle.

[Jyak]

I tend to agree about the length. The problem with the
long paddles in high anglesis the extra distance between plunge depth and the height the blade is above water when setting up for the next power phase. Even though the Cyprus is a high angle paddle, at least one experienced kayaker prefers the Cyprus 94.5 sq inch paddle for both high and low angle over the Kalliste 99.7 sq inch low angle padfle.

Before ditching the Cyprus, that would encourage me to try using the Cyprus at a lower angle angle, which would reduce the interval between exit at the end of one stroke and catch on the next one. It may increase cadence by 10 spm. Rather than seek speed, look for consistency in maintaining glide. Reduce the spikes in your graph. That means consentrating on edging to correct tracking and be careful not to end the exit with a sweep stroke.

[E.T]

Thanks, I’ll give this a try. Also, I’m about to give a GP another go. If I can get used to the forward cant, it might be just what I need.

[Jyak]

By going to a Greenland paddle you’re probably going from 94.5 sq in Cypus to less than 80 sq inches with the Greenland. You’re changing the tools rather than learning how to use them.

[roym]

I’m not sure how any of these assumptions were jumped to. Did I miss something? A Greenland paddle can be made with any desired area and I don’t see any indication of not learning either , or both paddle styles. I must of skipped major postings. Count me as confused.

[Jyak]

I thought the issue was about accelerating a longer boat or heavier boat with too long a paddle, too short a paddle, needing a bigger blade to accelerate with more gusto, then going from too narrow a blade to a to an even narrower blade.

I’m the one who is confused, and listening intently. Let me excuse myself.

[Jyak]

I missed the math on the greenland.

[string]

I picked a paddle that felt good in use but it took some trial and error. I have one with a large blade and one with a small one. I use the length suitable to clear the boat.

[High_Desert]

The best advice I can give when trying the Greenland paddle is to leave your Euro paddle at home. If your old standby is staring at you from the deck you’ll be tempted to give up and go back to what’s ‘natural’. Once you ‘have’ to use the GL you’ll get the hang of it.

[E.T]

@High_Desert Yeah, I think that was part of my problem before. I didn’t give the GP enough of a chance. I liked it, but I was so used to old reliable, that I just went back to the Euro.

As to the other posts, I think that my main issue is that maybe I’m not comfortable with the amount of horsepower required push a long boat like the Tempest. That, combined with the paddling characteristics, like slow acceleration and low maneuverability, have me working harder than I’m used to. I’ve been paddling for many years, and thought I was a reasonably strong paddler, but who knows? It could be that I just need more time to get used to the Tempest, or it could be that the GP plus Tempest will be a better combo for me. It could also be that I just prefer shorter boats. The Tempest is fine once it gets moving, but actually getting to that point, it feels like I’m paddling the boat through molasses. Sluggish is a good word.

[Doggy_Paddler]

You’ve been paddling a long time, have you ever had any lessons? They might be able to watch your stroke and see what they think the issue is. I’m guessing it’s that the boat is too big for you, but I can’t see you and I’m not an expert so I don’t know. Also, you might get help to outfit your seat to your liking, and to assist you in finding what type and length of paddle best suits you.

[roym]

Sounds like you haven’t figured out how to get the horsepower out of a Greenland paddle. Same with ability to maneuver with it. Judging before you understand it. This is very typical. Relax as you try it and give it some time…don’t be in a hurry…just relax and flow with it. When you find the power , you will be amazed. Enjoy the dance.

[E.T]

I got my GP today, and it’s pretty awesome. It’s a Gearlab Kalleq. Still getting the hang of it, but it seems to go well with my Tempest. Turning the boat is a lot easier since I can grab near the end of the paddle and do a long sweep. The best thing is, it takes a lot less effort! Speed isn’t quite up to where I was with the Euro, but it’s not bad, and I’m sure I’ll improve. Overall, it feels more natural and sort of Zen-like to paddle.

[Craig_S]

All displacement hulls make a bow wake. Period, hard stop - its physics.

the trick here in looking at your bow wake is, what is the angle of the V coming off your bow, to clue you in as to efficiency.

all things being equal, length and width of the boat, one boat with a 30deg bow wake, is less efficient than a boat with a 25deg bow wake.

but in the end, every displacement hull will make a bow wake and will make it as soon as you hit the point where the boat is moving faster than the water can get out of the the boats way.

[Buffalo_Alice]

@Craig_S

All displacement hulls make a bow wake. Period, hard stop - its physics.

Absolutely true. In this instance the OP was comparing the magnitude of the bow wake observed with two different boats:
Also, when I was going at full speed on the Virgo, it kicked up a hell of a bow wake. Looked cool, but probably wasted energy. The Tempest seemed to cut through the water better.
A bow wake of greater volume also has greater mass, so more energy is required to move it. Wake angle is important for sure, but so is volume.

[Craig_S]

Blockquote Also, when I was going at full speed on the Virgo, it kicked up a hell of a bow wake. Looked cool, but probably wasted energy. The Tempest seemed to cut through the water better.

Volume thrown up, is well not totally a true indication.

if you look at the bow head on and from below you’ll see two "V"s formed.

the Below V angle is going to dictate how forcefully you push aside the water, so a boat with a wider angle in this plane will push more water.

Looking from head on some boats will have a Linear V shape while others have a convex V shape in this plane.

so assuming a V angle from below on two boats being the same or basically how pointy the bow is, both will push aside the same amount of water, however the boat with a convex V shape when seen from head on will appear to push less water or rather have less bow wake. as it will roll the water thrown up as opposed to just pitching it up and aside.

My Tsunami has this convex V shape, and at speed it appears to be pushing very little water as at speed its rolling the bow wake up and over. I suspect (not having seen a Tempest up close.) that the other boat being a WS boat also has a convex shaped V. Whereas from what I have seen of the Virgo it’s a complete linear V.

in this to really know how much water your pushing, is actually more dependent on the pointiness of the bow when seen from bottom up. (is pointiness even a word.)

Blockquote The Tempest seemed to cut through the water better.

that the real key phrase, I’d almost bet dollars to donughts that both boats have close enough to each other of a bow point and the experience here is that the Virgo was just throwing the water aside, where as the Tempest, rolled the wake up and over…

hopefully you get the gist of the complex that I’m poorly explaining.

[Jyak]

As a very good video posted earlier points out, hull length has the most influence, while a small percentage comes from bow and stern shape, hull form (Swede, Fish, Symmetric), bottom (V, round, flat), and chine (hard, soft, multi).

A narrower boat pushes less water aside, but the boat will sink deeper. No matter the boat, a 150 lb paddler displaces 80 lbs less water (close to 9 gallons) than a 230 lb paddler. A 150 lb paddler can also fit a narrower boat of the same length, yet it won’t sit as deep in the water. Bottom line, its hard enough to comparing a 57 lb 170 Tempest to a 68 lb
175 Tsunami, because the Tempest is 2 inches narrower and 11 lbs lighter, but the boats are typically used by different weight paddlers. The weight of the comparatively heavier paddler in this case makes the most difference.

[Buffalo_Alice]

@Craig_S

the boat with a convex V shape when seen from head on will appear to push less water or rather have less bow wake. as it will roll the water thrown up as opposed to just pitching it up and aside.

Now argument from me re the different bow geometries. However I contend that it takes less energy to roll the water versus “pitching it up and aside”, hence the OP’s observation re the Tempest cutting through the water more efficiently.
Of course, as @jyak points out, there are many other variables to think about which is one reason different paddlers have such different experiences with the same boat.

[Jyak]

@Buffalo_Alice it can happen.

The great thing about kayaks is how you can push the envelope to drive them harder and faster - if you want to.