Well shiver me timbers. Dang if you ain’t right!
Well dang if you ain’t right!
Didn’t believe it until I saw it!
Random thought from a newbie kayaker.
Instant movement VS faster movement;
Paddles come in many sized blades, in short and long lengths and in several materials.
But all paddles when used correctly do one thing in common. Anchor the body of the kayaker to a point in the water. The rotation and/or “pulling back” of the paddle moves the kayak forward but the idea of the blade moving backwards in the water is not realistic because the paddles doesn’t move. The kayak moves! The shaft of the paddle rotates like a lever and that moves the kayak because it’s anchored to the body of the paddler.
The attributes of any given paddle ( lack thereof) are related to it’s usability to that given paddler. A light paddle requires less endurance and strength to move then a heavy one. A longer paddle makes a longer arc in the water giving a longer power duration per stroke, but also can give problems with the release from the water and the extra length needs to be moved all by the strength of the man or woman using it. So even though there be dozens of different paddles the issue is even more complex because there are hundreds of variables that are specific to hundreds of thousands of different human beings who like kayaks.
So when I read and talk to kayaker about that is a fast or a slow paddle I am coming around to the idea that we may be asking the wrong questions.
As a parallelism: I own a heavy duty 4WD pickup with overload springs and a lift kit and custom bumpers for a tool chest on the back and a full animal/brush guard in the front. In the front I have a custom made bumper and a wench mount that holds a 14,000 pound pull rate wench. So…if I got stuck in the snow or mud and I needed to wench out and I had 2 trees in front of the truck, one is 4 feet in diameter and one is 3 feet in diameter. If I were to 1st cable up to the 4 foot diameter tree and pull the truck for 20 feet and then I switched the cable to the 3 foot tree and pulled the truck for 20 feet,which would pull the truck faster?
Answer: Neither one. The trees don’t move. THE TRUCK MOVES!
So in paddles if we have a set of blades that grabs the water that have 130 Sq In of surface area and another one that has 110 Sq in of surface area, which one moves the kayak faster? (Remember the blades don’t move. The kayak moves)
The question is wrong. Paddles are not “fast”. Kayaks can be faster or slower and paddlers can be faster of slower, but the paddle is effectively a water-anchor or “wench cable”. As long as the blade doesn’t slip back as it’s used( because the resistance of a given kayak and it’s load including the paddler are too great to overcome with that amount of surface area, any paddle large enough to “hold position” in the water is as fast and any other paddle that holds it’s position, ------ stroke for stroke.
A larger blade will become solid faster in sweeps and bracing, so more instant motion may be the attained for the high angle WW blades, but the cadence of strokes per minutes seems to be the only way you’d go faster. Once the paddle stops moving in water, it’s stopped. The leverage of the shaft and the length of the shaft, as well as the cadence all matter to speed, but the non-moving “water anchor” doesn’t give any benefit if it’s larger. The 4 foot tree is no better to pull against then the 3 foot tree. Using the 4 foot tree is not at all harmful to the speed, but is not any faster then the 3 foot tree. Paddles are not fast. People and kayaks are fast. Paddles are easier or harder to use, but not “fast” or “slow”. High quality makes personal performance easier. With that ease comes a faster paddler, but not a faster paddle. Paddle are actually just water anchors— all else being equal.
So a well made and well designed paddle is appreciated more then one of lesser quality because of it’s ease of use to any given paddler. NOT because it’s “faster”. A paddle that suits a paddlers make it easier for said paddler to be faster. (or as fast with less effort,… or both…take your pick)
The paddle is a water anchor. Features like shaft length, diameter, shape, material, color and beauty can and do please different paddlers more or less. But that pleasure or lack of pleasure is about humans, not about paddles. A good paddle is one that makes paddling easier or in some better for a given paddler. The human factors are not something we can calculate mathematically because the variables human to human are so numerically large as to be impossible to calculate with any real degree of accuracy.
Jyak introduced me to a super good paddle. A Warner Kalliste. It’s stiff as metal and as light as …well …as light as such a paddle can get without becoming weaker. It’s delightful to use.
But I am unable to use it to it’s potential. (yet) It’s so light that for me I find I have to get the stroke down to perfection or it flutters. It may be because my angle of attack is too shallow (I think that’s it — because it’s a low angle paddle which if I use it at a high angle doesn’t flutter) but I have to be very careful about my catch and my hand positions over my hull.
I own a Perception Sea Lion Shadow and a Necky Chatham 17. In the Chatham I am only about 1/2 inch off the hull bottom because of the seat that’s in it. In the Sea Lion I am about 2" off the hull bottom. Even though it’s 9 inches shorter then the Chatham the Sea Lion sits higher in the water because of the beam being 24" wide instead of 21.5 wide. The Kalliste when used in my Sea Lion doesn’t flutter much at all, but my angle of attack is steeper because my body is higher up.
I got that paddle in mid May. Since then I have become far better at it’s use then I was for the first few weeks because I am developing better skills. But I am not very fast with it yet. Why? because I am not skilled enough in it’s use yet to drive it fast or with full power. It flutters badly in the Chatham17 kayak if I try to go hard or fast. In the Sea lion it’s not bad at all and I am probably at about 80% speed and power with it now before I feel it fight me.
As of today I am fastest in my Chatham (21.5" beam, 17 feet 3 inches long) using my “oversize Greenland paddle” but that’s because I can go full power and full speed with it which I can’t yet do with the Kalliste. But I am getting better and better with the Kalliste but I am not there yet.
So coming full circle: I personally am fastest right now with my 8 foot long 4-5/8" wide GL paddle. As of now, I own15 paddles including the Warner, and a 250 CM Aqua Bound Eagle Ray. I have several Walmart cheepies and metal-shaft imports, a Carlisle carbon fiber WW paddle, 1 fiberglass-shafted touring paddle and about 6-7 wood GL and Aleut paddles I made myself. As of this writing (July 7/23) I go fastest with my ribbed over-size GL and probably about the same speed with the 250 CM Eagle Ray, both in my Chatham17. But I am betting the Kalliste may be the best designed and highest quality paddle of the lot. I just am not the highest quality paddler ---- and so I am unable to take full advantage of it (yet)
So I am dedicated to learning to use it better. I am WAY better using it now then I was in May. I am confident I will get it down pat before the end of the season and the winter freeze.
My sister’s kayak coach (in Alaska) told me the issue may be the length. He said the info about the paddle doing better in the Sea Lion and giving problems in the Chatham is a symptom the shaft may be too long. The Warner is 240 CM and the Eagle Ray is 250 Cm long but the Eagle Ray has a V face so it self-centers whereas the Warner does not. The Warner is designed to give the maximum about of traction available to the sweep through the water, but sacrifices that ability of self-centering for a bit more efficiency. If the shaft was shorter my catch would be at a higher angle even with lower hand positions. Simple math — when figured geometrically, sine cosine and tangent.
I am a short man at only 5’ 6" so my angle of attack in my catch is usually lower then most other men in my weight range. At 187 LBS I will set my hulls a bit deeper in the water then most other men who are 5’ 6" and if I compare myself to most men of 180-190 pounds I find I am shorter and so my shoulder height is lower on that point also. Between being heavier then most 5’ 6" men and/or shorter then most men of 185 -190 pounds I do have a lower angle of entry by a few inches then the average.
Is he correct? I am starting to believe he is , or at least may be.
BUT I use 9 foot long GL and Aleut paddles with no problem at all. In fact I have found I do everything better with a longer wood paddle (except go through shallow water) then I do with those which are shorter. I have GL paddles as short as 6 foot 9 inches and as long as 9 feet. My 2 favorite GL paddles are the 9 foot take-down GL and my 8 foot 1 piece “over-size” GL. I also hav ecome to realy love my 9 foor 1 inch Aluet paddle. these 3 are also my wood paddles I can go fastest with. So I am a bit confused because of the advice to go shorter with the Kalliste is exactly opposite of what I have found with my hand made wood paddles. But the fact that doing the catch at a higher angle is very helpful with the Warner makes me re-think the whole picture.
I am not an expert at all and fairly new to the whole kayak world. But I am a bit of a fanatic and living 7 minutes from the water, I am on the water about 5 days a week (when it’s not iced over) and have been for 3 years. So I have learned a lot in that 3 year period. But for every question I had that I got an answer to, I have probably come up with at least one more question to replace it.
My Friend Thor (who I entrapped into kayaking) fits his name well. He’s 6 foot 5" tall and is 277 pounds. He seems to have no problems with the Warner. He saw my Eagle Ray and bought one himself. They are selling fairly cheap now because they have been discontinued by Aqua Bound. He got a 230 CM and we used our Eagle Rays on a trip to Flaming Gorge and then swapped to both try the different lengths. I found no fault at all with the shorter 230 paddle and Thor liked my 250 better (we are talking about making a trade but won’t commit to it yet. We both want to make a few more comparisons)
So again my question factory is working better then my answer factory.
Why would I do better and have an easier time with a 9 foot GL or Aleut paddle over a 7.5 foot GL, but the shorter Euro type is better for me? I speculate that I simply have become more comfortable with the very long and light wood paddles but such paddles are nearly all blade with very short shafts, so the more I stick into the water the more they grab. Not so with a Euro blade. I gain arc circumference with a longer shaft on Euros, but no more actual traction. The bade is maxed out as soon as it’s fully under water. So having it farther away from my hull doesn’t give more bite. It does give a bit more duration of thrust because of the longer arc, but that’s all. And in so doing, the cadence is slowed a bit, so that longer arc may or may not be helpful (time will tell.
Anyway…rambling in writing.
All comments welcome.
I know that I don’t know. But I may not know WHAT I don’t know
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As it should be. Every bona fide researcher I have ever met says that more questions than answers are found during the discovery process.
@szihn, a smaller surface area blade like the Kalliste will not anchor like the big Ikelos. I’m not sure how to explain it effectively, but you don’t reach a high cadence from the start because the blade slips too easily. That just wastes energy without moving the boat.
It’s difficult to assess speed or progress without a GPS. Even then, speed fluctuates by several tenths, but you can tell your average speed withing a bracket of .2 mph (+ or -). If you’re trying to maintain 4.5 mph avg, your speed will bounce between 4.3 and 4.7 mph (and sometimes more; the GPS might be inconsistent, but at least it’s consistently inconsistent). If you drop to 4.2 mph, you’ll strive to go back to 4.5 mph and back off if you hit 4.8 mph. It’s similar in a car using the gas pedal to regulate speed. It’s just a greater struggle in a kayak due to the conditions of wind, current, waves, and compounded by the inherent inaccuracy of a hand held GPS.
As recorded on the phone app, the chart only depicts a trend. The tighter the graph, the less variation in your actual speed. It still displays a ragged graph, but like the irregular rate of chest expansion while breathing, you can see the graph trending. It’s not the spikes and valleys but the center of the spikes that you’re looking to interpret. You want the spikes to level out and tend toward a flat line rather than bouncing wildly.
One of the charts above is with my 11 yr old grand daughter. It’s like reading a polygraph, and the results are not always obvious. You need to look at trends. Especially when coupled with the course track, it can show stops for water breaks, where I cleared water out of my eyes, changed paddling focus or technique, entered an area buffeted by cross wind, or turned a corner going from a following wind to head on.
You can muscle your boat forward with a large surface area paddle (length is another conversion), but it’s a slower process with a smaller area blade. If you fall of glide from 4.5 mph to 3.9 mph, it may take ten full seconds to get back to 4.5 mph. For that time you’ve fallen below the average speed goal, you’ll need to over compensate to make up the lost time. Conversely, taking your speed up to 4.7 and holding it there (which will register on the GPS as 4.5 mph to 4.9 mph) means you are exceeding your 60% capacity by .2 mph or more. That’s significant, because you’ll find yourself dropping to 4.1 mph (again the GPS will reflect that duration as 3.9 mph to 4.3 mph). The consequence of that spike to 4.7 mph is several minutes of recovery until you get back to the 4.5 mpg “bracket”; it’s always about staying in a bracket. Just like hitting a hill or cross wind using foot control on a car’s gas pedal, except you receive input through your muscles in conjunction with the GPS readout.
When you practice the 90 cadence spin on a bicycle, it becomes rythemic and nearly automatic. Its the same with paddle cadence. You spot check your cadence at 15 seconds, 30 seconds, 60 seconds, by watching the seconds pass on the deck mounted unit. Its the cadence and a metronome-like rythem that confirm that you’re maintaining speed. The GPS just shows you the bracketed speed. I spent the last two years assessing the willey ways of the GPS. Other than recording a timed interval over a measured course, I’m unaware of a better system, and even then, the timed interval only gives an overall average. The beneficial effect of specific techinques are nothing more than perception and conjecture. I found that over a know distance, it’s typically a better strategy to not go for higher speeds when winds and currents are favorable, but to moderate output and reserve it for the reverse course where your energy will be needed most. Where the graph showed a flat line chart despite winds and current direction, the overall avg speed is always higher.
To me, the term faster paddle implies a light paddle that responds to commands the way a lighter wheel responds to imput on a bicycle. For a blade to move faster in the water means your stroke is too fast and its only wasting energy through slippage. SLOW the velocity of the paddle to be slightly ahead of the boat’s speed. Once you reach the “hull speed” of the boat you’re in, which is displacing the combined weight of you and the boat, you’ll notice the specific wave action of the bow. My sister could tell when we hit about 3.6 mph by the gurgling sound made by the bow wave of my boat.
Ironically, discussing the problems you’re having with the Kalliste helped me forestall flutter with my paddle for another .4 mph. I know that you’d rather watch deer than paddle harder to get somewhere sooner (after all, you waited a few months to get to your car buried in the snow). I don’t disagree with your approach because I know you’re as fast as you need to be. My approach may be wrong and it’s probably OCD, but I never started kayaking because it was fun. I simply find it challenging. Besides, I don’t have to stop to look at ducks, they follow me for some reason.
Dude! Sounds like you have some serious wenches up there.
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Paddles are not anchors . They all slip to different degrees. If you had a sheet of plywood 4x8 as a blade it will still slip it’s in a liquid. Ikelos is bigger so it slips less. That’s why kallista tends to be less harsh on people’s body it like a relief valve.
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PaddleDog52 is correct. The idea that a paddle or anything else can be motionless in water when a force is applied to it is fundamentally incorrect. Unfortunately, that means most of the arguments above that are based on the assumption that something can be anchored in the water are not supported. In particular, the idea that paddle blade area is irrelevant is certainly not correct.
The first thing I go over in my first lecture in intro to fluid mechanics is the definition of a fluid: A fluid is a substance that deforms continuously when subjected to an applied shear force of any magnitude.
In other words, when you push on a fluid, it flows, always. Whether it’s a paddle, a sheet of plywood, your hand, whatever - if you exert a force on it while it’s immersed, it will move and the fluid will flow out of the way. This is why a puny person pulling on a thin painter can move a heavy cabin cruiser sitting at a pier. It’s why a large dirigible can be propelled with a low-horsepower motor and propeller.
If you push on fluid in a closed container, that’s a normal force, not a shear force. When a normal force is applied, the fluid doesn’t flow, it becomes pressurized.
Water and air are both fluids by this definition, the only major differences are density and compressibility. At low speeds (Mach number less than 0.3), air and water behave the same dynamically.
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OK Guys, keep going.
This is how I learn.
A nod is as goid as a wink to a blind horse.
Indeed.
Contrary to what we usually learn, a paddle blade moves through the water when making a forward stroke, albeit very little with a good forward stroke.
Too simply said, it is the ‘resistance’ against the movement of the blade through the water that creates the possibility to pull yourself forward and with that your boat.
But the way the paddle moves through the water also determines its optimal ‘resistance’ depending on velocity and blade shape in terms of size and shape like curve, wing, aspect ratio (GP vs.Euro) et cetera.
But that keeps our discussions alive about how we should make a forward stroke because it doesn’t always come natural: recently I tried a wing paddle briefly and could not find an advantage (yet) to my way of paddling.
Your kallista shouldn’t flutter it’s not that critical on the angle or length. I have a 215 Kallista I think that I bought for my partner or she bought it. Never felt it flutter I don’t think she did either. She’s 5-6 and I’m 6-0. Neither of us liked it . Reminds me of an ice cream stick. Definitely doesn’t stick in the 
at all.
Well I would guess Warner made them to not flutter. (A good business plan) So the fact they shouldn’t flutter is a given, ------- but it does!
Not the up and down flutter you get with a Greenland Paddle if you don’t cant it a little. This flutter is a rapid twisting along the long axis of the shaft ---- clockwise and ounterclockwise.
If I do a high angle stroke with it and stab it into the water “tip first” it doesn’t do it but if I try to slice it in on the facet, or on the bottom edge it starts that flutter and then I can’t stop it. If I concentrate on my catch going in at a high angle and then dropping the shaft to a low angle and sweeping it outwards (like a wing paddle stroke) it seems very good. It’s a complex and exact style of movement, and I can do it well but I can’t yet do it fast. If I go for broke on either power or in speed the flutter starts and I loose much of the control and efficiency of the stroke. But if I keep my cadence about 55 SPM I can make the strokes well enough to be happy with it.
When I started in May I was only abbe to do about 25- 30 SPM. With my Aqua Bound Eagle Ray or even my cheep import paddles, and with all my wood GL and Aleut paddles I like a cadence of about 60-65 SPM. However if I want to I can go hell-bent and get up to around 70-80 for short sprints— and none of them do that flutter like the Warner. Now I am not blaming the tool. I think it may be the best quality paddle I have. But I am simply not skilled enough (yet) to use it perfectly.
As I said in a previous post, I think the Kalliste may be the best and most refined paddle I own, but it also seems to be a design that requires a perfect stroke. I have no one around here that can (or will) teach me so all I learn is by talking on the phone, using the internet and watching vids and writing to other kayakers in various places from Canada, Washington, Hawaii, Virginia and the Great Lakes area. All have been very helpful but I can absorbs some and then just go to the lake and try what I think they are trying to teach me.
I have no one here that can or will take any time. (And yes, I have tried to contact a few, but there are only 3 in my state I have found. And of those 3, 1 can’t be bothered, one is only into White Water kayaking and one may be dead for all I can determine ----- because no answer at all have ever come back from e-mails or phone calls)
Because I was 100% unable to use the Warner without flutter when I got it unless I used it very slow and gently and now I can use it at good reasonable speeds and at a power level that moves my kayaks fairly quickly I think that’s proof there is nothing wrong with the paddle itself. I believe that is proof the problem is my technique.
So I keep doing what I have found works with it, and I am developing speed naturally as that set of movements becomes more ingrained and automatic. But it is by far the most exacting set of hand, arm, and body movements I have had to put together since I started kayaking. What I love about it is despite the fact I REALLY have to concentrate on each stroke being perfect, the lack of weight makes it possible to do that for 4-8 hours with no great fatigue. I have taught shooting to Military personnel and police for 40 years and I think any coordinated movement is learned the same way. Practice makes perfect is not true. Perfect practice makes perfect is how we should think. I simply need to find that perfect set of movements and blend them perfectly.
Slow is smooth and smooth becomes fast.
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Kallista is not ideal paddle for high angle.
Need more than smooth to be fast.
OK, but is it possible to be fast without being smooth?
Smooth to me is efficiency. Clean entry and exit is smooth to me. To be max fast you need efficiency. Clean entry is about timing of entry.
I guess you can hammer a paddle and be fast but not the fastest possible.
Ikelos 691 cm2, 19.75 x 48.5 cm blade
Cyprus 610 cm2, 18 cm x 46 cm blade
Kalliste 643 cm2, 16.5 cm x 52 cm blade
Greenland 516 cm2 (+/-), 8.9 cm x 81 cm
Heres where I get lost in the logic. The question is only about powering the kayak, and I need help understanding it in very very simple terms, without a physics lesson:
The three Werner paddles have asymmetric shaped blade to counter the tendency to torque when plunging at an agle, they use virtually the same technology, are within ounces of the same weight, have the same blade cross section profile, but only vary in height and width of the blades . The Ikelos and Cyprus have a 81 cm2 difference in blade surface area. The Ikelos and Kalliste have a 48 cm2 difference in blade surface area.
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Now, which of those three paddles, with overall paddle length being equal, would feel more like a “stick”?
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Which paddle would propel the kayak faster and why?
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Which paddle would be easier on the joints?
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Would it be possible to maintain the same cadence over short or long distance with each of the paddles?
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Which paddle would be best for distances over 10 miles?
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How can you take advantage of a paddle with a smaller sq inch blade and translate that into a speed advantage over distance?
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What makes the Kalliste less suited for high angle use other than the fact that the blade is 6 cm (2.3 in) longer that the Cyprus, and 3.5 cm (1.37 in) longer than the Ikelos?
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Since the Greenland paddles are easy on the joints due to the longer blades, wouldn’t a Kalliste be a little more effective as a high angle blade, when the Greenland is EQUALLY efficient according to experienced users in both high and low angle modes?
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If a Kalliste feels like a stick, what does a Greenland feel like by comparison. Which one could propel the kayak with more speed/acceleration?
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How would a Euro paddle with an 86 sq in blade compare to a Greenland paddle with around 80 sq inch blades? Which style would propel the kayak faster?
Although I have found these paddle discussions to be interesting and informative I still have the 2 paddles I like the most , an Onno full tour and a wind paddle.
I’ve been through a cheap first paddle that lasted about a week, a mid price touring paddle with a carbon shaft and nylon blades , a wing, an Aleut that I carved and a GP I carved. The Aleut is on the den wall and a friend has the GP and likes it.
I use the wind paddle because it is easy on my shoulder.
After all this discussion, I’m thinking of trying a GP again. The store bought ones sure are pretty.
I’ll still be mostly a Rec paddler.
I’m impressed by the Greenland paddles. I was suprised by how much effort it took to approach the speeds I reached with the Kalliste, Greenland 3.9 mph compared to Kalliste 4.5 mph. Certainly much owing to poor form and inexperience using Greenland compared to the time using the Kalliste. Still, the Greenland isn’t in my cards. I will make another. They do look good.