@string I adapted my low angle stroke to mimic the track of the wing. It reduces the sweep effect of low angle and exits cleaner.
I hear about the path of a wing paddle, but actually I don’t know what it is ---- to be 100% honest.
What I am doing (which I am told is a wing stroke) is to plunge or slice the tip of a paddle in the water at or a bit in front of my feet. The shaft angle is pretty high, with my upper hand at the top of my head. As soon as the blade is completely submerged and as I am unwinding my body I drop my upper hand quickly to about the area of my lower ribs and it pivots to a place over the top of the opposite knee. The working blade comes along side but is sliced outward at an angle away from the hull and follows the wake lines in the water more or less. So the working bade is moved not just backwards in relation to the hull, but also outward.
Is that a good or a bad stroke? Is that indeed what’s called a wing stoke?
It’s the one I am using with the Warner Kalliste that gives me no flutter. My problem is that I can’t get a very fast cadence because I lack the level of coordination I need to do it fast. I am much quicker now than I was 2 months ago and get a bit better every week. But I can’t swear I am doing anything truly right.
Reading and re-reading the post Jyak just put up, he makes a lot of points /questions that seem to demand logical answers.
I know that in aircraft a smaller prop can grab more air then a big one, but that’s only if it can be spun faster. I assume the same would apply to kayak paddles, but my 1st question would be "why would you do that? " What advantage is there to a smaller paddle blade going so fast that the person doing the paddling can’t control it well. Am I wrong? I am truly asking (not being sarcastic) because I am quite new to all this and because living where I do it’s very unlikely I’ll be able to try anything different unless I am lucky enough to get one along with any used kayaks I buy in the future. Since I have been kayaking I and my wife have now bought 29 kayaks and kept 6 of them. Most of the came with paddles, but none came with anything very special. Anna kept one Carbon fiber and glass WW paddle, but I don’t like it because it’s a 1 piece with about 45 degrees of feather built in and I can’t get myself to like feather in my paddles. All the others I have got with used kayaks are probably in the $75 and lower range.
Me… I just don’t know.
I know that I don’t know!
I don’t even know what I don’t know.
But what I know is what I am experiencing and what I have experienced so far.
I can report it all, but not explain it all yet. I can make guesses based on 3 years of paddling, but they a re just that…guesses.
If my idea of the paddle blade being a “water anchor” is correct I could maybe see a reason for a smaller blade in the case of a strong and light paddler and a light kayak being used. If the blade stops in the water (or at least slows to near zero-- so as the ratio of it’s slipping backwards and the boat’s forward movement are lets say 98% boat and 2% blade)…I can see how a smaller blade could be a good option. The smaller kayaker can move it faster and the shaft of the paddle is what’s actually moving the kayak, not the blade. The blade is the anchor and the shaft is the tool used to move power to the kayak’s hull through the paddlers body.
So if the blade doesn’t move it doesn’t move. Not 100% solid like it was in cement, but so little as to be insignificant. I have pulled myself out of a lot of holes and snow in 4WD trucks and Land Cruisers using anchors that do flex some, but hold well enough to allow the truck to move before and more then the anchor moves. Same principal.
So if a paddler was strong and fast and could maintain a faster cadence with a smaller set of blades but the blades slip say 5% more then a big blade, BUT the cadence is 20% faster, that kayaker is going to be faster with the smaller paddle. Correct?
Now if the same paddler gained only 5% more speed in the cadence (SPM) and the blades slipped 5% also, he or she gains nothing.
Now if someone the size of my friend Thor (6’ 5" and almost 280 LBS) tried a smaller paddle I am sure he and his loaded kayak (well over 100 pounds) is not going to have as solid an anchor to the water then he would with a paddle with 100 to 130m Sq In. But if my young teenage friend Kiley at 107 pounds goes out in the 32 pound kayak she’s using with nothing more then her lunch and 2 bottles of water, the smaller blades may anchor her shaft very well, and her cadence of 70 SPM moves her right along. If she gets a larger paddle and can’t handle the length, weight or “grab” and it wears her out faster I doubt the big paddle will allow her to maintain her 70 SPM. Is all that a function of big and small paddles or more a function of big men and small girls moving big heavy kayaks and small light kayaks?
I think we can all see the comparison swell enough here.
But the trick is going to be judging the blade slip VS the forward speed. That has so many variables as to be uncalculatable.
And a speedier blade movement slips less because of the incompressibility of water. My day told me of pushing loaded freighters in calm water during WW2 with his legs. But the force had to be long and hard and constant. A bullet on the other hand hits water and break apart very quickly. Even a 50 cal Browning Machine Gun Armor Piercing round fired at close range breaks into pieces in less then 18 inches of water. Speed is the difference.
So-- How many different kayaks are there?
How many different paddles?
How many of the same paddles but in different lengths?
How many different combinations of cargo loads can there be?
How many different levels of strength of paddlers are there?
How many different levels of endurance are there for all paddlers?
You see why its effectively impossible to tell a newer paddler (Like me) exactly what is perfect for them to use?
In the last 3 years I have made about 17 wood paddles and used about 10 of them. I have bought 29 kayaks and with them got about 27 paddles and used most of them. I also now have 2 GOOD paddles and I have used both of them. I am FAR more knowledgeable now about paddles and kayaks than I was 3 years ago.
BUT----------- on a scale of 1 to 10, a true expert is a 10 I would guess I am about a 2. That’s 2X better then when I started, (100% better, 1 + 1 being 2) but I still have more questions than I have answers.
Perfect paddle is the one you’re happiest with which does what you want it to do most of the time.
I personally prefer a larger blade and less cadence. Rather wear out my muscles than my joints going like hummingbird wings. 
Kallista is not a wing paddle so using it like a wing would seem not 5heost efficient idea.
I guess wings are good for racing because 3% faster is still 3% further. Win is a win.
Like when I raced boats say a 1 hour race I do 101 mph average. Next guy does 102 for the one hour race. When he wins I’m a mile behind and look like I’m not even in the same race.
29 kayaks 
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Yup.
And it my luck holds, in the next 2-3 weeks it may be 31. Working on a possible deal for 2 more for my brother and one other friend.
I wanted to buy one from one of the members here, Pikabike, but it’s a bit too out of reach for me and my brother to swing, because it’s distance from us as much as any other factor. It’s 1 and 1/2 big states away from us.
Clay also had to spend near all his money on medical bills for his wife so the timing was bad. If we could have done that I’d be at 30 right now.
@szihn if your recall our early discussions. I compare it to pushing a playground merry-go-round loaded with kids. Its hard to push at first. A large blade like a snow shove “catches” more water (slips less) than a 3 inch blade. The flutter you feel is the paddle slipping and alternately dumping water to find stability.
The first push of the merry-go-round is just enough to get the mass moving. The next push is easier, because you’re no longer moving a stationary mass, so each push (paddle stroke) gets easier. It might take 45 second (45 strokes to get to 4.5 mph or .1 mph per second). The stokes become easier as speed increases. The goal is to increase paddle speed without slipping. Once the boat is moving, stopping the stroke for 4 or 5 stroke cycles will see the speed drop from 4.5 mph to 4 mph, then it’ll take at least another 5 seconds to get back to the 4.5 mph. After 2 miles you’re warmed up and you’ll feel a surge in speed by about .1 or .2 mph. By then you should easily maintain a cadence of 70 to 75 spm and reach spikes of 80 spm. Don’t stop the cadence or you have to claw back.
After we exchanged info and discussed technique, I changed my stroke. I now only concentrate to make the catch as clean as possible. The catch dictates the entire cycle. The exit will be automatic, because you begin the power strike cycle and plunging toward a smooth catch results in a smooth exit - you don’t have to even think. At 75 spm, your rotation must be systematic. The center of the paddle remains at the same height above the deck. The power hand starts on the exit side of the boat and is slightly high. It crosses the centerline and dives to the catch as the torso unwinds and the blade shuffles outward at the apex of the arc. The power stroke transitions with a rearward stab and the blade exits in an upward slice as the catch phase begins the dive to the water. It has less to do with power than with rythem and always focusing on a clean catch.
The blade is always perpendicular to the water. No feather. Hand locked in rigid paddler box held in isometric tension. The stab outward as the exit approaches only changes with the box becoming a slight trapezoid.
Don’t come off glide. It works for me. As long as your speed stays up, the small blade easily keeps the pace.
Look at the video, “Looking for tips to paddle faster”.
107 sq in @ 51 spm = 5,457 resistance
99.7 sq in @ 75 spm = 7,477.5 resistance
Craig_S can handle large blades for short distances. I break the effort down with a smaller blade and more cadence. However, you can’t power with a small blade, it just slips. You have to build it slowly, literally .1 mph per second or less. Push too fast, flutter. Approach the hull speed and effort increases exponential. That’s where I used your comments to tweek the blade and increase my speeds by .4 mph before onset of flutter. Feel it through. You’ll get it. I think you’re pushing to hard. Build speed slowly.
I posted this graph of my grand daughter’s trip under a different heading, along with one of my early trips to show the large spikes, compared to a tighter paddle technique.
Ideally, once planted a paddle should not move but be anchored to the water. Of course we do not live in a perfect world. The paddle will move a bit back a bit in a forward stroke. It would seem logical that a paddle with a larger surface area blade will be anchored better than a paddle with a smaller blade. The larger blades will put a bit more strain on muscles and joints being more firmly planted.
A wing paddle’s aerodynamic (hydrodynamic?) blade shape is designed to resist slippage a bit better than a standard Euro or Greenland paddle. A wing paddle is optimized for the forward stroke. It does not work quite as well for back paddling, bracing, and for some rolls.
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Regarding paddle flutter some people have reported that loosening the grip of your lower hand and allowing the paddle dihedral to do its work often helps.
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@rstevens15 it’s true that the largest blade provides the most resistance. With that in mind, it would seem a blade equaling the cross section of the kayak would be the best match. Even so matched, the paddle will still slip because the boat is heavier. The same way a bullet moves before the gun because its lighter. How about pulling a tablecloth without disrupting the plates sitting on it. So here’s the question:
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If your paddle stroke is fast enough, will the boat essentially remain stationary?
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Does the weight or cross section of the boat make a difference in the surface area needed to paddle a boat.
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Assuming the surface area of the paddle is a matter of convenience (since all blades slip), how do you arrive at a balance between paddle area and efficient propulsion.
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Is there a way to compensate and reach equivalent boat speeds when using either a larger or smaller sq in blade by adjusting cadence.
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Is it more effective to extend the power stroke beyond a diminishing effective range of motion, or to limit the paddling stroke to a range that has greater power output and enables a higher cadence within that range.
I concentrate primarily on the catch and a consistent follow through to keep the blade’s angle of attack consistent through the paddling arc. The use of a control hand to reduce flutter makes sense. I believe that allows slight changes to the blade angle without sacrificing contol. Continuing your thought that the wing has less slippage, I believe the blades of a wing paddle are better suited at higher paddling speeds because the water is channeled more efficiently in one direction
I’ll start with #1: Yes, especially if it is anchored or if you’ve forgotten to put your boat in the water.
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If you start out to accelerate too rapidly with a lot of force, you can exceed the ability of the paddle to be relatively anchored in the water resulting in cavitation of the blade which is inefficient.
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Weight, cross section, length, and a host of other factors will factor into the best paddle for a particular boat. I don’t know of any formula that takes all of the variables into account, although there might be one.
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Again, the best balance is probably found by experimentation unless you have a test tank and some fairly advanced equipment. I don’t know how paddle makers design their paddles.
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Adjusting cadence can compensate for a smaller surface area blade. There are a number of trade -offs for the average paddler in terms of energy and efficiency.
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Carrying a paddle much beyond the hips results in what some call “shoveling water”. Energy is wasted by pulling the stern down and rocking the boat side to side. Lifting the paddle provides less and less energy in moving the boat forward the further back you go.
By the way, I am not an engineer. My answers are based on my own experience.
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Oh! But will it stay put if you pull a tablecloth from under it.
@rstevens15 are you sure about your answers because I agree. Especially about assessing whether the paddle or the technique is adequate if you want optimal performance in different boats.
1 no
2 yes
3 personal choice
4 ? is? Seems like a statement.
5 no diminished return.
- Is a question, not a statement.
Just wanted to report back that the GP has been working well. Overall, I do feel that it’s less tiring to use. I’m definitely not as quick with it, at least not yet, but I can still cruise along at a decent clip. Still not sure if I will keep using it exclusively, or go back to my Cyprus, but it’s a fun paddle to learn.
I think part of my problem may have been that my Tempest 170 is just too voluminous for someone my size. I’m about to try a 165. I paddled my friend’s very briefly this afternoon, and it felt so much better than my freighter-like 170.
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I’ll bet you like the 165 better as long as your feet fit well. Have you used the GP to skull? It’s fun.
I hope so. I think my main problem is, I bought the wrong boat initially. The 170 is awesome, but I think it’s overkill for me. The feet thing is the only issue that worries me. Hopefully, it turns out to be no problemo. The nice thing is, the boat is coming from Amazon, so if it doesnt fit, I can just return it (unlike the Virgo that I bought from a local shop and am now stuck with).
Wow - that’s a big item to ship back to Amazon! You must live near an Amazon facility?
I think there are some of their mega warehouses in the area. I almost returned my 170 when I got it, and they were going to arrange to have a freight service come pick it up. I was emailing a shop in IL, and they deliver boats with their own service, but it would’ve been 300 bucks. Then, I’m assuming if I didn’t like it, it’d cost me another 300 to ship it back.