At any time…
a judge could rule that a person endangered a child by doing (insert activity here) after teh child dies or gets seriously hurt. All it takes is one accident and the right judge and there is a precident set.
I’m GLAD to hear you havn’t heard any stories of kids dying in the news letter.
Haven’t heard of any such legal
precedents, either. And our club is rife with lawyers and paranoid about liability issues.
Already in the water…
has nothing to do with falling outta boat.
Let me make it clear, whatever an adult wants to do causing increased risk to themselves I won’t say a word. But when it comes to endangering a child it is a different story.
not a good idea
Being able to float with a kiddie PFD or being able to paddle around in a pool like some infants DOES NOT mean that they have situational awareness, which is certainly a must in any emergency situation. Infants don’t belong in kayaks on the water. Period.
What benefit for an infant?
– Last Updated: Aug-28-08 2:31 PM EST –
Any child development book will tell you that infants and toddlers learn by stimulation. They encourage parents to expose their children to as much varied stimulation as possible, within reason. Varied experiences are critical to a child's brain development, especially in the first few years of life.
Will and infant appreciate the zen quality of gliding along in the lake air? No. But they will learn about qualities of light, water, motion, and notice those things with which they share the word (birds, trees, maybe fish). Toddlers will begin to understand how these things interact, and will start to understand the spatial qualities of moving through the world.
I am in no way advocating throwing newborns into whitewater boats and floating down the Gauley - my position on safety and good judgement is clearly articulated above. But to imply that an infant or child can get no value from an experience because they can't appreciate it as you do is, frankly, dumb.
Pull some child development books out of the library, or watch the National Geographic series on human development, if that is more your style.
g2d
– Last Updated: Aug-28-08 2:52 PM EST –
You refer to kids/young children/small childred, but you do not state any specific age for those kids/children when you describe 12 years of newsletters, and no injuries reported. Children to me range from new born to at minimum 12 years of age. I started taking my daughter when she was 6, but she wore a pfd(as did I), she could swim, and follow verbal directions.
Are you saying that you knew & observed parents canoeing, or kayaking with their 4 month old child? You would advocate that for "any" parents who canoes or kayaks?
Still haven't seen the answer to my question as to the parent's reasoning behind taking a 4 month old canoeing or kayaking? Or what might be the perceived as the benefit to a 4 month old child?
BOB
Look at the responses to your 1st post*
In our club, there seems to be a
de facto standard of about 18 months or older for taking kids along, and it is conditional. I used to be a very active trip leader on easy runs back in the 70s and 80s, and I never saw a kid younger than 18 months on a trip. Of course, when screening participants, we would only accept kids on trips if the rivers were easy, the weather was good, the parents were known quantities as paddlers, and there were other paddlers willing to run “safety.”
One of my regular annoyances is seeing parents on the (easy, class 1-2) metro Chattahoochee, little kids in pfds, but the adults paddling without them, and with no safety boats. I see this occasionally even when the water is somewhat “up” and cold.
I realise I have not answered all of your questions, but some of them appeared not to be for me.
Parents reasoning?
– Last Updated: Aug-28-08 3:34 PM EST –
The parents are hunter/gatherers, and have no friends, relatives, or older children to care for the 4 month old while they go paddling.........so they are forced to take the 4 month old, out of necessity?
NOT!
In many hunter/gatherer cultures/communitites, those who were too infirm to provide for their own needs were left to care for the very young, while those who were still physically able did act as hunter/gatherers. Also, some older children were used as baby sitters for their own siblings, relatives, and even those to whom they were not related. Similiar to day care.
Some mothers acted as wet nurses for multiple children; some not their own, until their the nursing parent returned.
If hunter/gatherers carried their 4 month old child in boats with them, I believe it was because they had no other option. They would be an additional burden during the hunting/gathering process.
Certainly an infant does need stimulation; exposure to cold, heat, light, dark, wind, water, different sounds, different movements, different voices, the human touch, comfort, discomfort, other animals, etc, etc.
Those things can only be gained by putting a 4 month old into a canoe or kayak? NOT!
The well reasoned benefit to taking a 4 month old canoeing or kayaking would be what?
BOB
toddlers don’t have a whole lot of
situational awarenenss, either. So, where’s your limit? It will be just your limit, though, because lots of folks have had good, safe trips with toddlers in the boat.
Kids don’t have good situational awareness for car accidents, either.
Reposted here
Any child development book will tell you that infants and toddlers learn by stimulation. They encourage parents to expose their children to as much varied stimulation as possible, within reason. Varied experiences are critical to a child’s brain development, especially in the first few years of life.
Will and infant appreciate the zen quality of gliding along in the lake air? No. But they will learn about qualities of light, water, motion, and notice those things with which they share the word (birds, trees, maybe fish). Toddlers will begin to understand how these things interact, and will start to understand the spatial qualities of moving through the world.
I am in no way advocating throwing newborns into whitewater boats and floating down the Gauley - my position on safety and good judgement is clearly articulated above. I am on record that paddling with a child is probably not an option before about 1 year. But to imply that an infant or child can get no value from an experience because they can’t appreciate it as you do is, frankly, dumb.
Pull some child development books out of the library, or watch the National Geographic series on human development, if that is more your style.
I think that…
the point he was making is that the child may get a benifit, but it isn’t from being out on the lake gliding along. It is from other things that he/she could get in a much safer way.
Believe me
P net is not the right board to ask this question. Check out Canadian Canoe Routes.
Here is a thread about it & you can google more of them.
http://www.myccr.com/SectionForums/viewtopic.php?t=9551&highlight=infant+lifejacket
All the poster outraged by
the proposition of a child in a boat seem to think that the kid is going to be plopped in a hatch and paddled out to Catalina, or some similarly risky activity. I am on record that a 4 month old should not be in kayak, but it may be appropriate to take a 9-month-old around the frog pond in a 42" wide canoe. Not all paddle activities have the same level of risks.
Balancing the risks of an activity with the benefits of the experience is what good parents do everyday. Tailoring your activities to meet the needs of your child is the compromise of parenting.
Is there a danger in letting my toddler crawl up the stairs? Of course. But at some point, I’m going to let them do it, because the benefits will outway the risks.
I agree…
– Last Updated: Aug-28-08 4:03 PM EST –
I totally agree with what you are saying about children & their need for stimulation. Their are other venues to attain stimulation besides canoeing & kayaking. Children born/raised in a desert, or mountainous environment are not unloved, uncared for, or doomed because they don't have access to canoes or kayaks.
The original question was relating to paddling with a "4 month old" child.
Now in some of the responses to the original question we have people saying 1 year is ok, 18 months is ok, 3 year old is ok, first grader is ok, etc.
People are referring to infants, kids, children. Are these infants, kids, children they are referring to 4 months old? I don't think so. People refer to swimming pools. Are we talking about canoeing with a 4 month old child in the controlled environment of a swimming pool? I don't think so!
Who among those advocating canoeing/kayaking with a 4 month old child did so when their child/grandchild was 4 months old? If you think it is so important to an infant's development why did you not take yours?
Remember, we aren't talking about children; we're talking about a 4 month old.
BOB
Well then you agree…
a 4 month old should not be taken paddling? That is what the outrage is about. I through in my opinion on the subject on top of that.
The child in question
– Last Updated: Aug-28-08 4:38 PM EST –
Child on the "other" board is a 9 month old.
Original poster is questioning if it is ok to take out a 4 month old.
Not much difference, but most assuredly 5 months difference.
Do you have any personal experience about paddling with a 4 month old that you could share with us?
I personally have no experience canoeing with a 4 month old infant. Never entered my mind, and if it had, I would not have considered it a well reasoned decision. At this point, I am just playing devil's advocate. I see no real justification for canoeing with a 4 month old; other than perhaps the "I don't need any justification" line of thought.
Hopefully, those considering canoeing with a 4 month old infant are doing so for purely altruistic motives, and it is not a case of attention seeking behavior. Possibly another "bone of contention" eh........
BOB
The original post was of a 4-month old
but the conversation has since wandered all over the pre-K age range.
My main objection was to the tenor of your original post, which implied that their was no benefit from the experience for infants.
The judgements we make about activities for our kids are obviously related to our environment and the activities with which we are comfortable. The child that grows up in the desert is not going to be in a canoe at a young age, but might be on the back of a mountain bike. I can easily imagine this same discussion on a cycling board.
Thanks…
to many of you and kiss off to many of you. We were sitting around talking about this one day and I posted the question. That’s it, there is no baby “baggage” with my cousin. I don’t claim to be an expert on anything let alone paddling which is why I had it in quotes. I guess some of you missed the implication of that. Thanks to those of you who answered constructively.
my limit…
Depends on the situation. Is the adult in question a strong swimmer, are they paddling around within sight of the lake house? The local pond? Shallow water?
My limit would likely be a young child who is old enough to be taught what “911” means and what to do if somebody is hurt or needs help. Or a young child who’s taken swimming lessons at the Y. If somebody wants to take an infant or toddler on an “excursion” they are making a choice. Car accidents are often during necessary transportation, so the comparison is not apples to apples. Again, my feeling is that it’s not a good idea. I’m a parent and my kids participate in sports and outdoor activities, and have since they were old enough to be able to provide at least minimal self-protection skills. People are certainly free to make any choice, as long as they fully understand the potential for danger or injury to a minor.