pintail vs avocet

hey. i paddle mostly a plastic tempest 165 and i love it. however the pintail has been on my mind for some time. yesterday i paddled the pe nordkapp and avocet in a force 8 and current…i found the avocet to be very nice in this stuff, although i had to work when the wind cought the tip on wave crests… how will the pintail be in conditions force 7-8 perhaps more in semisheltered waters. thats what i love . find a great place with nice wind and go in and out…the tempest is faboulus in such conditions…but the pintail might be a nice

challenge. or is it too lose in force8 and up?

Force 8
Force 8=Cars veer on road. Progress on foot is seriously impeded.

Paddling into 40mph winds, 20 plus foot waves and factoring in current puts any experienced paddler in any boat right to the edge of physical limitations. Debating boat appropriateness in these conditions is like talking about how fast an ice cube will last on the surface of the sun.

I did go out
in the intracoastal waterway (no fetch) when Hannah was coming in a couple years ago. Wind was supposed to be up to 45 knots sustained at that point. I happened to take out a Nigel Foster Legend that day. I could point it and travel in any direction, but there was definitely a lot of force involved. I didn’t try, but I’m pretty certain the ocean wasn’t allowing any kayaks (or really much of anything else)to enter at that point. But a storm traveling across the Atlantic with stronger winds to come is probably on the extreme end of examples of 40+ knot conditions. Local winds kicking up would offer something a little different.

Where were you at? Do you actually get out into open water (meaning miles of fetch) with the wind blowing that strongly? How long had the winds sustained at that speed blowing in the same direction? What were the waves like that you were dealing with? Sounds like it could be a lot of fun. I’m always interested in hearing what’s possible. I’m not being sarcastic. I’m honestly interested in what others out there are actually doing.

pintail vs avocet
no im paddling on a lake so its not much fetch involved. not much progress ito the wind, at all but playing in the waves…it might not have been 40 knots 30-35 i guss.40thats more like f 9…so ii know how heavy thing gets on the ocean…so a typicl gale on a lake 60-7o cm rolling waves . they break in a carateristic way. and the lake covered with

spindrift…its more like laying on the waves. zigzaging and backsurfing and ferrygliding out of the wind…im basicly asking weather the pintail is too loose and will become difficult to contol…

i use a long 240 narrow balded greenlandpaddle…

pintail vs avocet
Its quite interesting to paddle on inland lakes…i can try to push my limits without the danger of big breakers…Mylake is in a valley and it kicks up a good force 6-7 almost every day this year…and often a bit more…it comes and goes.but its awesome training, even though the waves are not big…i feel agreenland paddle

makes it a bit easier…oh yea the lake is 7km long…

pintail vs avocet.

– Last Updated: Aug-03-10 9:32 PM EST –

you know guys. i always get into trouble when discussing these things...peaople either thinks im a jerk and a liar, an idiot that knows nothing about the sea or just nuts,blown away, which is quite true.
i deiscovered these local wind really last year when i was surprised with really strong fall winds. i just had to lay down as low as possible with the paddle unfeathered..this helps..then i started chasing these winds, and found them to be quite i got obsessed with these things and have studied every video of lakes in føhnstorms etc.the kind ogf stuff that windsurfers hunts.i might be wrong about windspeeds, but i just compare what i see and feel with the beaufort scale and what experieced paddlers huchinson says force 8 surval situatiuon
no progress, wind starts to act weird on the boat..but he also says. "in sheltered waters its possible to cope even with hurricane conditions, for an experienced paddler.."
i personally dont go out far in open ocean in more than bf5-6..well i ight.on the lake in strong wind,
its a matter of planning so i can go out into the wind sideways, and have a good retreat route..and the wind isnt so bad as long as i dont try to fight it. the wind is in charge...anyway its fun and relatively safe
in a lake..and i highly recomend this kind of Paddling.
by the way im norwegian. 50years old Drummer, former flycaster/rod kayaker..great forum!
if you go tu you tube, and serch for "35 knots windsurf lake" or 40 knots whatever.. youll find videos that shows the kind of conditions im talking about..


Just build yourself a boat :slight_smile:

Bill H.

pintail vs avocet
hey bill. yes i know. id propably like it, but the paddling takes all of me these days. The pintail is the only composite kayak i REALLY would like. but i love to see and read about the stuff you and the others are doing. now “eastern arctic kayaks” (heath)is being studied.its got some great storien and tips on rough weather tactics. the story about the eskimo that was blown out to sea in a heavy storm…gone for days…time and energy is the obstacle…regarding also a musician, and it suffers because of the kayaking. however it comes back in the form of increased creativity due to execcive paddling…you kayaks are wonderful bill!

too loose?
(My comments are regarding the pre-1995 pintail design - I don’t know whether they would apply to the current design).

I find that the pintail is easy to control in weather - more so in larger waves. I ride the boat fairly low in the water, (185 pounds, plus gear) so maybe that helps, but the boat appears to be be affected very little by wind. In big waves it’s a great boat to play around in too, as it’s easy to hop from one to the next, and spin around on top if you wish.

I have no idea how gale force winds would affect the boat though, as I’ve so far been fortunate enough to avoid those conditions. In 25 knots and 4 foot steep breaking waves, the Pintail was a peach, and considerably more composed than I was. :slight_smile:

pintail wind.
thanks. ive had a communication both with brian and valley on the possibillity of getting a old hull, but they only have the new form. i paddle tempests 170 and 165 and got a new roto zephyr 155 yesterday. i tried both the nordkapp and avocet in strong wind but not so big waves. both did very well. the avocet was almost too easy in the wind…but i got some serious pyramid waves from a cabin cruiser trying to tip me…they think its fun…he got pissed when i just laughed and waved to him. oh off track again.

the more i check out other designs the more i like the

atributes of the tempest. but pintail is different.

i MUST have one…

Avocet vs. Pintail

– Last Updated: Jul-18-10 7:50 AM EST –

The Avocet tracks better than the Pintail, but it's less stable. The Pintail is more maneuverable and very comfortable in rough conditions.

It's sad to hear that Valley will only build the new version of the Pintail (post '95), as the older design is a better boat.

Why ???
Why is the older Pintail a better boat? I have a 97 / Ocean Cockpit, Whale pump, and it has the famous flat back deck. I have paddled it and a new design Pintail on the same day and did not notice any real difference except my older one if heaver because of the layup.

I hear this over and over on the forums that the older design is better. I would really like to know what I am missing here. Thanks

more stable?
I haven’t tried an avocet in conditions, but it seemed to me to have much more secondary stability than the old pintail, but pool-tests can be very deceiving!

Which pintail model do you consider to be more stable than the Avocet? Both?

Thanks, Nate

Agree with Brian,

I have a 2000 kevlar Pintail (for sale btw) and love it in rough stuff. You can put it wherever you want it, but it has to be worked. Valley took the edge off to make the Avocet a better kayak for beginners, but the Pintail is more fun in surf.

pintail zephyr avocet
thanks…i tried the avocet in high wind but only around 3-4 foot steep wind waves and complex seas with speedboats all over the place.the valleys seems to be very neutral in such conditions.its a matter of taste…i prefer my new zephyr155 to the avocet, but we are different we humans…

im ordering a pintail now…warm yellow/white…classic stuff. fiberglass keelstrip…(brian let me know if you are interested in the lindisfarne…)ill send a mail, ive been busy,)the zephyr also seems to be a branch of the pintail tree…

oh well…today i made a call, and ordered a warm yellow /white fiberglass keyhole keelstrip PINTAIL.

so hopefully some weeks(6 they claim …hehe)iLL have a new experiece i hope…its so beautiful it speaks to me…(like the tempests.)

If your boat is a '97…

– Last Updated: Jul-24-10 11:44 AM EST – can't have the original flat deck, as the last year they made them was '94 or possibly '95 (check the last two digits of the HIN for the year of manufacture). If your boat has a keyhole cockpit, it is definitely the new design, as the the original was only available with the ocean cockpit. On the original boats, the aft deck is FLAT, not arched at all. On the newer boats, the deck is still pretty low, but not as low as the older flat design. IIRC, they also added some knee room near the gunwales on the new deck, making the foredeck deeper.

When Valley change the deck, they also changed the hull. The original was very rounded and more or less a continuous curve, but the new hull has noticeable bilges, much more like a Romany than the original Pintail. This adds volume that makes the boat ride higher and it doesn't have quite the same feel on the water.

FWIW, I know anyone who's paddled both designs who preferred the new one. That said, the new design is still a great boat and it may suit you better than the old one would.

Perhaps my “butt memory” is wrong
I recall thinking that the Pintail felt more stable, but it’s been a long time since I did the comparison. What matters is how it feels to you.

And since it was…

– Last Updated: Jul-24-10 12:34 PM EST –

a custom order by the shop ( ordered in mid 96) who had it built and has a flat back deck, no arch at all and an ocean cockpit I assume it is the old hull and deck design. But in the end not really worth discussing.. I love the boat and would never sell it. Regards.

OK, that sounds likely
If it has the old deck, I’m pretty sure that it must also have the old hull, as I don’t think you can mix and match them.