Pintail original
The Tempest is a knock off from Valley design. I like the T170 hull but loath the coaming, placement the cockpit, and thigh braces. Why all that room behind the seat and not enough room to drop my legs in.
The pintail should be better in the wind with the lower deck…
Both of my Valleys are designed for high wind and rough conditions.
Haven’t paddled a Pintail or Avocet (too tall) so why the Pintail over the Avocet?
tempest pintail
what valley kayakk would that be…? My tempests have “boxy sides” around the cockpit and wellmarked v form under. it moves very differently in the water,than anything ive tried from valley. for me the T170 is an expedition/mulitdaytrip, and my helsport svalbard tent fits perfect behind the seat…a big can of water as well. if not in use i have an inflated paddlefloat backthere.
i havnt paddled the pintail. its gut feeling and therefore a gamble.
the avocet is nice,but i want something more extreme…besides i just got a new Zephyr 155 which i like a bit more than the avocet. this certainly is highly subjective…
…
What people are willing to compromise on is subjecticeve, and how accurate their assessment is of a kayak is subjective, however the kayak it’s self isn’t that subjective.
I like the Zepher as well except the spray deck on the one I use doesn’t stay on very well… the Temp cockpit is horrible IMO… you have to struggle to put the spray deck on compared to any other kayak… the hatch covers are the worst I’ve seen (I use a Temp a good bit)… that said it’s a good boat and it has good secondary and does well in moderate wind, especially for beginners…
I like a responsive hull in heavy conditions. Secondary stability and hard tracking is overrated by intermediate paddlers who go out in moderate conditions.
Keep us posted on your Pintail and post a few pics when you get out there in it!
tempest
i agree that hatches could have been tighter. however, i prefer it to ones i need to use my paddle to press it close…A rope keeps them fairly tight it. i just think the tempests are awesome…and a great plastic boat.
pintail. yes i will. right now im considering getting a 3piece. i dont drive…so it might be practical…
i wanna go norwegian westcoast…a place called STAD.
also called westkapp. a notorious stretch of water…
A fantastic place, unique along the norwegian coast. popular surfplace since storms around greenland sends its swell right into those sandy beaches. looks a bit like shetland…golfstream close to land, shallow, bulky bottom. current,reflections…ad a hurricane and you get the picture…google the place…oh yes pintail…
poking around those waters when its not too rough with a pintail seems like fun to me…talking to pilots, fishermen etc…so i hope i will like the pintail. its gonna be an expensive experiment…
Westkapp
looks like and awesome experiment! I know several advanced paddlers who have Pintails. You will probably appreciate how well it responds in those conditions.
Several kayaks like the Tempest and Explorer are easier to balance brace, but I haven’t found anything that beats a Valley for all around paddling in open water.
Enjoy your pintail
It’s the ultimate rough water kayak. The only thing I don’t like about the kayak is that it feels like I’m plowing through the water instead of cutting through it.
pintail
thanks guys…!
definitely plowing!
– Last Updated: Aug-01-10 9:58 PM EST –
When I'm doing a long slog home after rock gardening, or making a beeline from one spot to the next, I get a little tired of the fat sloppy bow wave the pintail creates. It's especially annoying when I'm paddling beside really fit paddlers in fast boats, and see how smoothly their boats part the water, as they cruise along effortlessly at 4 knots.
I was out with two guys in Force 4s this weekend, and the difference between my boat smooshing through the water, and theirs' cutting through the water was quite clear. (Though I had the biggest smile in the rocks and clapotis) :D
pintail
every design is a compromise i suppose…
yes
Yes, everything is a compromise. The pintail takes that to a bit of an extreme, but the payoffs in handling and surfing ability are wonderful.
didn’t realize
the pintail plowed that much of a bow wake? I suppose the AA and PT are the Valley play boats. I’ve had a Q boat and NordLV which have been excellent all around open water kayaks that slice though the water and can cover some distance. The trade off is they hit a tipping point on a hard edge, although are still very responsive to a moderate edge.
I suppose everyone does get used to the kayak they paddle . I thought the Temp 170 is very similar to my Nord LV, and if I’m not in an open water or wind I like the Temp 170. Once I was towing two kids in a tandem and looked back and the tow rope had pulled the hatch cover off the 170.
pintail
i really like the tempest 165 in wind. The zephyr is good too, but i havnet tried it except on my lake 7km long in a valley…nice winds here. The big tempest i like if i have to bring lots of load. empty its to much windfang for my 70kilos. im really looking forward to the pintail.i never paddle in a straight line more than i have to. So i hope it will help me develop as a kayaker. i need to work more seriously on my atcion rolling. Warren williamsons article was great. i use a 240 narrowbladed greenland paddle…
might have been fun to see mr WILLIAMSON at deception pass in a pintail. Do you know any paddling films with pintail action?
Bow wave
– Last Updated: Aug-02-10 11:11 PM EST –
My brother has an early Pintail and it does create a bit of a bow wave. It's a bit slower than the Outer Island I paddle and he often paddles but I doubt any slower than the Romany or Avocet. I think it has less stability than the Avocet but I think a bit faster. BTW: I had lunch and in-depth conversations with Howard Jeffs who worked at Valley when the Pintail was made. The Pintail was a Anas that they literally slapped bondo on and rounded out. Believe me, I don't think that makes it bad or any less than any kayak out there. But that's was how it was done.
The Avocet was Valley's answer to the Romany. Both of them have very flat bottoms - hence it's purpose - a beginner boat for training or guide services. You can take a non-paddler out in an Avocet or especially a Romany and they will do fine. You can't really do that in a Pintail. Atlantic Kayak in NY used Romanys for years in their fleet for people who never kayaked and there were no capsizes and newbees feel comfortable and secure. You just can't do that in a Pintail. However for any normal paddler, the Pintail has plenty of Initial stability. I don't know if Valley did any hull changes to newer models?
newer
model Pintail has flat sides instead of the slope the early one had…also a slightly domed rear deck instead of the absolutely flat rear deck the original had (gives it a little more strength so it won’t crack along the bulkhead)…a little more user friendly for a beginer.
There is also no longer a chimp pump sitting in the rear compartment with an intake through the bulkhead behind the seat
still a very fine kayak
Best Wishes
Roy
pintail avocet
i recently paddled a rm avocet, and i did not notice any VERY shallow V or flat areas. it was more or less a rounded wide form. And quite loose. it was easy to put on edge and had very good stability on edge.
the tempest 165 has quite pronounced Vform and flat sides with a small round edge. Almost hardchined. but the composite avocet might be different. i also paddled the RM nordkapp, and aquanaut. they all felt “the same” kind of…valley feel i guess.ive never paddled a romany, unfortunately.the zephyr is along the same road as the avocet, but with sweede form and some interesting , id say sophisticated details to the hull. i feel that the valleys are quite gentle boats, while tempests for ex are more agressive…
me buing a pintail is based on gut feeling. I might not like it at all…hehe. ive been padling seakayaks for 5-6 years and according to my wife ive owned 9 seakayaks. a quaanaaq 512, now i have a northwest “lindisfarne” a old kayak with roots to the first anas acutas verions…bla bla bla…getting carried away…sorry. Thanks again for the imput folks!!
pintail and elsewhere
oh what a coincidence. i just read your article on the static brace, JAY. great piece. thats what im working on at the moment…ive had a little contact with WarrenW and his article too was very nice…i love to watch the baidarkaroll thing. the pintail might be a nice boat for rolling…
test paddle
Not sure why you didn’t test paddle in rough conditions before you bought a kayak?
Once you get out in the ocean in 25 knot winds there are no speed boats. haha…
While I can appreciate a well designed kayak, there are plenty of them that work for me. I think Valleys are well thought out, and it’s important to test paddle.
I would like to get out more in rougher conditions but this was 20 knots with high surf. Notice no speed boats. 
http://i298.photobucket.com/albums/mm242/islanders66/kayaking/PC090168-2.jpg
“…valleys are quite gentle boats…”
"…valleys are quite gentle boats, while tempests for ex are more agressive…"
That really surprises me. To me the Tempests are extremely reassuring and feel the most like NDK boats such as the Romany (T165) or Explorer (T170). Even the designer of the Tempests has noted that one needs to be “on top of one’s game” to paddle a Valley Nordkapp LV. I regularly recommend Tempests to novice paddlers and often put them in my Romany to positive response. I can’t same the same of my Nordlow
"a branch of the pintail tree"
Yes. That tree of lineage is: Anas Acuta - Pintail - Romany - Meridian - Zephyr.
Valley’s own Pintail tree runs: Anas - Pintail - Avocet - Aquanaut (more precisely Argonaut - Aquanaut)…
just about any boat
can be paddled aggressively. Just depends on the paddler.
A Nordlow, like a Barracuda or a P&H Bahiya (just for some examples in widely differing hulls) are all a handful for beginners, and can make some “intermediate paddlers” feel like beginners. They make for nice dance partners I hear '-)
The Tempests, Avocets, and Romanys all make excellent beginner boats - and are enjoyable to more advanced paddlers as well.
FWIW all 3 seemed like bow wake pushers. My friend has a 165Pro and, paddling alongside him in my Suka, he remarked on how much more wake his Tempest was generating. The line of the bow in the water was markedly different in each boat. The deeper V hull of the Suka coupled with a narrower waterline (waterline, not beam) of 18" made for more tracking & less nosing around.
The Pintail has, again, for me, much more personality, not the fastest agreed, but shifts like a sportscar and swift to turn while dancing. The extra length seems to melt away when edging… i love the older Pintail, esp. w. the ocean cockpit.
If one can’t mess around in boats it’s certainly nice to talk about their performance & personalities…