Not really
Think of it from the paddle’s perspective. It recieves a certain abount of force applied at one end, there is a fulcrum, and then the end where the outcome is delivered. It- the paddle- doesn’t know and doesn’t care how long your arms are, only how much force is applied.
Again, look at the case of 6’5" Oscar Chalupsky. He uses a 215cm, but as short as 21cm. Around the world, surf ski racers his height and much, much shorter use just about the same. It has to do with working agaings the hull’s resistance.
That said, there is a point where arm length and torso height start to come into play. Again, the lever concept- smaller people will have a hand span on the paddle that is closer together than bigger people. Since that changes one lever arm around the fulcrum, it makes sense that to maintain a relatively easier work load, the outboard (water side hand to the center of effort of the paddle) needs to be shorter, just to make things equal to what the paddler with a greater hand span experiences.
What is that difference? Well, not enough empirical evidence to make a firm claim to a number, but around here, women 5’-5’3" seem to like 195cm paddles, men 5’9" to 6’3" prefer 205-210cm; but paddlers inbetween often prefer 205 over 200cm.
Here is another biomechanical issue. It is a given that “high angle” is more efficient than “low angle”. But why is that? Simple, the lower angle shaft puts the blade farther away, sort of approaching a sweep stroke. More yaw, less surge (turning instead of going forward).
Given that, why do we accept that low angle stroke needs a longer paddle? Especially if one accepts the idea that the paddle length is primarily a gear ratio?
Try this- paddle a low angle stroke with a very short white water paddler. Does it work? Heck, yeah- what is a sweep stroke, after all?
IMO, a low angle stroke is easily accomplished with very short paddles.
But, try a high angle stroke with a long paddle. If the blade is close to the boat (high angle), where is your top hand? If it is above your shoulder height, that is simply biomechanically awful- you are very weak in that position.
I have observed, over the years, that many using a low angle stroke do not really have their top hand much lower than a properly fitted shorter paddle, used high angle. To extend that further, many have convinced themselves, improperly, that the high angle technique was too much work, only becuase their paddle was too long and place their top hand above their shoulder height.
Look at any photo of kayak racers. During the last part of the power phase, the top hand is almost alway at shoulder height, and often lower.
karl
Awesome Karl!!
I really like
What you are saying Karl…I find a lot of sea kayak “truths” to be outdated and not based on science at all, rather history and nostalgia. Imagine if surf and WW stayed in that box??
Well, g2d, that’s archive-worthy.
That would suck
"Imagine if surf and WW stayed in that box??"
Dogmaticus
time to 'speriment…
Taking a page from the GK book of kayaking:
- take you a 2"x6", standard stud length, 'bout 96"
- paddle with it and see how it feels
- knock off 'bout 2" (thats 5 cm for you metric folks)
- paddle some more & see if better or worse
- go back to step 3 'til it gets worse
- there it is, your perfect length!
215 - 230 cm
Adjustables are available, as others stated.
No reason not to go with an adjustable.
I had a post asking about a difference of 1cm,
and the majority of responses agreed that even
that small a size difference could result in a
significant paddling difference overall.
Your paddling needs for a given occasion could
change, and your style of paddling and physical
dexterity could change. The adjustable grants
you the flexibility of paddle adaptability to
your changes.
I am biased, and recommend Onno.
Shrinking
I’m 5’9" & started paddling k-1’s with a 218 Struer(Euro style). Over the years, I’ve dropped to a 212 wing for an 18" wide boat. I find the shorter paddle is better upstream, into wind & I seem to last longer. Good luck.
paddle length perfect with telescope
Bending Branches has a telescoping glass shaft model that is fairly light and you can back off the feather angle from the standard 60 degree which is a bit much for some of us. I have the full carbon version and really like it and as other posters have mentioned sometimes 2 cm feels like a major difference and I like to vary the length when paddling rivers versus open waters. I think the glass version is $139?
Grip width
So what about the width of your grip on the paddle? For a given paddle a wide spacing between your hands is going to shorten the lever arm but also raise your upper hand more. So the paddle length is only one factor in the force applied, right? Seems to me that a couple of cm change in your grip is the same as a couple of cm change in the paddle length as far as the leverage is concerned.
… or maybe I’m just blowing smoke.
Has your boat width shrunk too?
Or just your paddle length? Did the paddle blade length change, or just the shaft length?
Low angle with short paddle…
You said “Given that, why do we accept that low angle stroke needs a longer paddle? Especially if one accepts the idea that the paddle length is primarily a gear ratio?
Try this- paddle a low angle stroke with a very short white water paddler. Does it work? Heck, yeah- what is a sweep stroke, after all?
IMO, a low angle stroke is easily accomplished with very short paddles.
But, try a high angle stroke with a long paddle. If the blade is close to the boat (high angle), where is your top hand? If it is above your shoulder height, that is simply biomechanically awful- you are very weak in that position.
I have observed, over the years, that many using a low angle stroke do not really have their top hand much lower than a properly fitted shorter paddle, used high angle. To extend that further, many have convinced themselves, improperly, that the high angle technique was too much work, only becuase their paddle was too long and place their top hand above their shoulder height.”
How long is it comfortable for you to paddle low angle with a short paddle? Does it work for more than 10 to 15 minutes? It seems like you’d have to kind of reach out to the side with a shorter paddle in order to bury the blade completely if using a 210 or 215cm for low angle if you usually use 225 to 230 for low angle (assuming that hand spacing and blade length remain constant with the different length paddles).
Does low angle mean low top hand height? I thought it had more to do with the relative height and angle of the two hands during the stroke.
a contrived consensus
Good question on defining low angle.
Traditionally, the advantage of a low angle style is to be able to keep the hands low. Since the water side hand is nearly always low, whatever the paddle, this implies that it is the top hand that stays relatively lower. The rationale is that it is less taxing.
My all too common ovservation is that there are many using very long paddles in such a way that, not only is the paddle inefficient (far outboard, creating unnecessary yaw), but the top hand is still at shoulder height! Shoulder height is about right for a technically proper “high angle” stroke. The worst of both worlds.
As for how long can one paddle a low angle stroke with a 210-215…
I picked up my copy of Harvey Goldens book, “Kayaks of Greenland”, where he surveys quite a few paddles, and I looked at the different lengths. I threw out the childrens paddles, and the Polar designs (trying to stay within similar design type), and averaged them. They were as short as 173cm, and as long as 240cm, with a median of about 202cm. The average of all is 206cm.
The Greenland Inuit were noted for their use of the low angle stroke, traveled many, many miles, and used surprisingly short paddles. 206cm in this survey was the average, right?
Obviously, there are flaws in this argument. I’m not sure if even Harvey would hazard a guess as to wether his list reflects a reasonable cross section. Also, while the Greenland Inuit were noted for their use of the low angle style, how often it was used compared to a high angle style? In the Greenland Kayak Championship, the distance racers, so I understand, use a very high angle stroke. Did they use high angle more than we think when traveling (not racing), and use the low angle when hunting (low angle drips less, therefore quieter)? I don’t know, perhaps others with knowledge could chime in.
And last, the Inuit boats have very low foredecks, which would facilitate a lower hand position.
But even with all that, I would say the implication of ease of use of a low angle style with a short paddle is clear.
karl
quite right
Hare, you have it right. I did bring that up in my post that you replied to- reread the part that starts “there is a point where arm length and torso height”.
This can become complicated, though.
It is often addressed by teaching the classic “paddlers box” idea. It has it’s place- a quick and dirty way to get someone’s hands a reasonably decent span on the paddle, to create one of the lever arms. And yes, the wider the hand span, the more efficient the lever (really basic physics at work here, yet shocking how often it is ignored).
But it (paddlers box) doesn’t alway work. In reference to the original question of cases of those with unusually long arms, looking at it from the paddles perspective works well. Longer arms= bigger paddlers box=larger hand span, and implies a longer paddle. But if that creates a situation where the top hand is quite high, why not stay with a shorter paddle, and shorten the hand span slightly less than the “box”; this would keep the gear ratio the same as for someone of the the same height, but with…normal?..arms. This would be a happier solution, I would think.
karl
50 inches
I think a single blade 50 incher would make a really fun back up paddle for you. It’ll be greak for creeks and really windy days. And it gives you muscles a break on really long days.
I think I’ve got it now
Thanks for your patient descriptions Karl. It sounds like there are lots of degrees of freedom that interact here.
I’m interested to see what a 205 Cyprus is going to do for me.
Another thing of course is when you are talking about the other strokes. I suppose it makes sense to optimize for forward stroke.
paddle length?
I’d suggest that if you don’t have an idea of the proper paddle length then you’re most certainly not ready for 8 hour paddles on Lake Michigan.
An armspan and a cubit.
Yup…
I don’t even use my “sea kayaking paddles” anymore when I go in the long boat. I much prefer my surf/ww paddle at 180-185 cm.
sing
A “Winner Yet?” A Prize?