Rolling class...

Do we know…
…what size and shape the OP is? :wink:

Or
save yourself some money and go out and do it yourself. I wasted a pile of money earlier this year on a instructor who turned out to be absolute junk.(plus travel to the city which was 80 bucks each way)



Read what you can online,watch some videos and go practice.



The roll is a very basic easy skill to learn.It is not the “difficult” “advanced” maneuver others claim to profit off new kayakers.



Your best bet is join a local club and head to a pool session. One of my friends joined KNL in Newfoundland. 20 bucks later (10 dollars a night for pool rental) he can roll a kayak.



It took me watching a couple youtube video’s, and in a couple afternoons I was doing c2c and rear sweep rolls pretty solid.

all types of people…
I agree that a very beginner can often learn to roll quickly, but for some it can be a long journey. If you have a very good sense of your body’s position, are calm and watch those videos well you can learn without an instructor. But many of us aren’t so lucky and lack one or more of those qualities. For those folks a good instructor helps. The best instructors know how to help you relax. Then they know how to try various ways of doing drills or explaining such that the light bulb goes off and you understand. Then finally (for most of us mere mortals) it takes a lot of practice to help you both relax more and get the muscle memory set.



I find it a disservice to many for those that do pick up new things easily to assume it should be easy for all.

agree!
I think a good instructor is almost always a faster way to learn.



Just because someone got stuck with an ineffective instructor is not an indication a DIY will be any better.



I can roll a few different ways. But even now, when I look watch the videos, most just doesn’t make sense to me. And even when it SEEMS to make sense, I couldn’t correlate once upside down! I doubt I would have succeeded had I not had any kind of in person instruction.



Besides, my single day instruction was quite inexpensive. And consider how effective it was (a rock solid C-2-C that, even after a 5 year absent from water, I was able to roll right up, in a SEA kayak no less!), it’s money very well spend!



What works for me now, after having roll in a few different way, is talking to people at the pool and try what they suggest right then and there. If it doesn’t work, discuss and try something different. That’s basically “instructing”, albeit by “non-instructors”.



Basically, different people learn differently. I’d say if your instructor couldn’t get you rolling after 2-3 sessions, it’s high time to find another one. It’s probably an indication you and your instructor doesn’t “mash”.



The one thing I do agree with the point65guy is rolling isn’t an “advance” move. You either got the hang of it quickly, or you’re probably trying it the wrong way.

Not intended to
bid you a disservice.



What I disagree with is the current ideals of calling a roll anything but a basic skill. I also don’t believe paying someone to show you is right. I personally had a very bad experience with a kayak instructor in Ottawa.



I live out in the country, so there was no one around in my area. I paid 75 dollars for his instruction for 2 hours,add 160 dollars worth of fuel to get there.



the other 4 who were in the class had the same result as me at the end of the class. Neither of us were any further ahead. As we left the beach we were all saying we should have just showed up to westboro beach and practiced on our own!



I later joined a club which was full of people who knew how to roll a kayak.And many offered to teach me…FOR FREE!! And this is what I advocate. there is no reason why someone who knows how to roll can’t take some afternoon and pass on the skill to others.



People shouldn’t have to pay money to learn a basic life saving skill. Heck I was pissed that I could have purchased a spot,VHF radio,etc out of the over 200 bucks I wasted to get “instruction” that was useless.



If you can’t figure it out on your own (which I did) join a club. not only will you benefit from having peers to learn roll’s from, you will benefit from others who are willing to share…who may not be a ACA/BCU,Paddle Canada coach. Or carry their fee’s.

bad apples
Clearly you had a bad instructor experience, but I wouldn’t extend that experience to the general conclusion that it’s not worth it for anyone to hire a kayaking instructor.



I’ve learned a lot from my kayaking peers, but by far the most I’ve gotten out of a day of kayaking has been when spending a day with a really good instructor.



As an aside, the instructors I’ve used charge in the ballpark of $125/day for group instruction with one coach per approximately 2-4 students. Pool sessions with about the same ratio cost $30 for 2.5 hours. So the coach you had the misfortune of hiring was perhaps overpriced, as well as ineffective. :frowning:

Not considered advanced

– Last Updated: Dec-21-09 9:26 PM EST –

Yes - the folks in the rec kayaks think a roll is advanced. But then those folks also consider a decent brace as advanced. They have these boats partially because their interest in skill development is limited, whether it's because they are only paddling in constrained environments or they are not ready to feel comfortable in a skinnier boat. It doesn't take much to seem an advanced skill in this situation.

But I don't know where you are getting the idea that a roll is usually/often considered an advanced skill. In the hierarchy of the ACA and the BCU, and of course in any decent WW training, it is at most intermediate. And progress towards a roll is part of novice level work.

I have met those who, like yourself, could watch videos and get a roll. I and many people I know are among them - many need a capable instructor and a bit more patience, some out there like me discover they get claustrophobic or otherwise unduly anxious and need time to acclimate and tamp that down then instruction.

throwing the baby out with the bath wate
Just because you had a bad instructor doesn’t mean all instructors are bad.



I paid but 75 dollars for my instructor, for a full day of about 5 hours of water time (we did it in a pond instead of a pool).



By the end of the 2nd hour, I was already up. The next 3 hours were spend on refining the motion and making it more efficent. It was solid enough that with only sporatic pratice, I retain the motion for the next 7-8 years.



I’m sure the first kayaker who invented rolling didn’t had any formal “instructions”, in person nor video… Doesn’t mean the rest of us can do equally well without instruction!

sea kayak roll being “advanced”
“But I don’t know where you are getting the idea that a roll is usually/often considered an advanced skill.”



I don’t know where others get that idea. I got that idea from many of sea kayakers themselves. They’ve been paddling for many years. They call themselves “experienced” kayakers. But they don’t think they would even attempt to learn to roll, never mind actually mastering it. I even once met more than one sea kayak tour guides who believe rolling is so advance no one should bother to waste time on it until all other rescue technique had been praticed to death. One even challenged me to demonstrate a “combat” roll by allowing her to push me over without notice!



Coming from a WW back ground, I quietly smile inside…

Y’all Don’t Know
Nobody knows about the quality of instruction Jeff is going to get at the Y. When I went to classes sponsored by that outfit years back an ‘instructor’ was anyone who could roll a boat. As far as I know no one had any three letter acronyms behind their name. The cost was $5 a session and I walked away with a $5 roll. Went to the competitor’s outfit (GOPCo) and they sold me a good video and I got more like a $30 roll. Recluse and jsmarch introduced me to the GP and I’d estimate my roll at about $175.



Jeff, learning boat handling is a fun, ongoing thing. I’ve learned stuff from ‘instructors’, books, video, friends, and the kind folks here on PNet. Please don’t roll a couple of times and say ‘ok, I got it.’ Those folks are dangerous.

Out of date (and labels)

– Last Updated: Dec-22-09 7:59 AM EST –

I will grant you that there was a time when many sea kayakers would consider a roll to be advanced, but that is well out of date among those who seek training or paddle in actual salt water. The inclusion of a roll or at least progress towards it by the intermediate level is an old requirement for the BCU and for ACA Open Water. And the west coast contingent on this board has a good laugh over the idea that a roll has ever been an advanced sea kayaking skill.

WW folks in particular have this idea, and granted for good reasons. One is one of identity - there are a lot of people out there who have long boats, but don't actually take them into conditions where skills are needed. They have sea kayaks, but they don't sea kayak. To me, it's pushing it to call these folks "sea kayakers".

We and everyone we'd actually paddle on the ocean with regularly confounds WW folks by doing a roll, or a hand roll even. (that wasn't me) And the length seems to confound too - someone challenged a young WW guy at one pool session to do a hand roll in my Explorer LV and he was thinking it wouldn't work. This guy was used to those really boxy play boats - the look on his face when he came up very easily would have been a camera shot. No way my boat was going to be as cranky as what he normally paddled in WW.

AS to that tour guide, I don't know what their background is but they could not have come thru any regimen that I have experienced. No one I consider to be a decent guide or coach would ever hold such a foolish attitude.

A lot of this comes down to access, and granted in that we are lucky in that. There will be two sets of winter pool sessions running in January, in fact one was running this fall, at local pools where people can come and get help learning to brace, roll and perform rescues from members of the local club. :-)

OP size and shape…
I’m 5’ 10", thick-waisted, thick-chested, and thick-headed! I look like an ex-weightlifter who’s stopped working out. And middle-aged (on a 0 to 90 scale), so not so flexible.

Quality of instruction
The class is being provided by Get:Outdoors; it’s $75 for 4 two-hour classes with a max of 6 students. The price includes “Guide services, ACA instruction, all kayak equipment, facility fees”. It looks like they’ve moved it from the K-ville Y to a private swimming club in Greensboro (so it’s a bit more of a drive for me - instead of 20 minutes away, it’s more like 45 to 60 minutes).



Here’s a link: http://www.shopgetoutdoors.com/trips_classes/roll_class.html



My sister (who isn’t really interested in this*) called them; they said they weren’t getting much response and had only had a couple of people call and inquire. There’s probably a thin line there between getting more attention in the class due to having fewer students and the class being canceled due to lack of participation.


  • My sister is scared of the WW boats - she can’t really swim and is afraid she’d be trapped in a tight boat. She has a sit-on-top kayak, but she said she might be interested in a rolling class w/ longer kayaks if it was held in a lake in warmer weather. That makes no sense to me; I tried to point out the advantages of being in a more controlled setting with clear water, but I couldn’t get her to see the logic.



    I’m a bit afraid of going upside down under water myself - that’s the big reason I’m considering getting instruction instead of learning on my own.

You and sis

– Last Updated: Dec-22-09 9:40 AM EST –

Anxiety is one reason that I really needed time and help to roll. I didn't realize until I was upside down and had to stay in the boat that I would get instantly claustrophobic when I had to stay inside the thing to execute the roll. I had gotten pounded in surf body surfing when I was a kid, and later on found out that I was an easy match for scuba diving including where you have to take out and put back in the regulator under water. So it wasn't about being under water, just having to stay inside something once there.

Having a person standing there who can pull you up or out makes a HUGE diff in reducing that kind of anxiety.

AS to your sister, I bet that one of two things will happen. A non-swimmer in particular just isn't going to get over this easily (and there's an argument she should never get too far from shore anyway) Either she'll have a reason to avoid trying once the lake and warm water has arrived, or she'll try it in a boat that is so big in its fit that she'll be challenged to even get the thing up. You'll find that a tighter fit, the thing she fears, is critical in making a roll easy to learn. So let it be - she may see you getting this down the road and decide for herself to overcome her qualms. That's really the only way you are going to see her change her mind.

rolling 101
For an ACA rolling class they will start off by making sure everyone is comfortable with a wet exit. They will assess exactly where you are and take it from there with a step by step process that builds confidence.



A big part of that for a lot of people is learning how to be underwater, hold their breath, and get out on their own. And a qualified instructor will take it step by step, break it into stages, then support you while you progress.





It’s good to take an intro to kayaking, which should practice wet exits and basic stokes and rescues. Then by all means paddle in groups, then when you think you are getting good, a group lesson on strokes and maneuvers will provide a complete foundation for a well rounded skills. Watch videos, and there is plenty of info here at Pnet.



It depends on what you want to do.



I thought I was good when I took my first ACA L3 training (pretty much stokes, maneuvers, rescues) and they had me leaning and twisting this way and that, I felt like a complete beginner, but just did what they said. It was amazing how much everyone progresses in one day, then you have the right techniques to practice.



A lot of instructors here paddle in groups and will help or practice anything anyone wants.



The only problem I have is people polarizing the kayaking community for their own selfish reasons. I’m sorry that one guy had a bad experience, but don’t let it ruin if for you. Group lessons are the way to go, where you don’t have someone trying to sell you a bunch of stuff you don’t need.




ratio
"a max of 6 students"



That sounds like too much ratio to me. Most classes I’ve seen have 1 teacher to 2 or max 3 students.

he and sis

– Last Updated: Dec-22-09 1:35 PM EST –

will need more hands on instruction with the instructor in the water taking turns holding them..

I assisted with a rolling class a few months ago that three students, one lead instructor, an assistant, (me) and a life guard.

Two students needed a lot of individual attention.

We had three two hour classes for $35 each, so I'm sure we lost money. Even at $75 for 4 two hour classes they will be lucky to break even for two students.

Two students I assisted were thrilled with the class, one was somewhat discouraged they had taken the class and couldn't roll. She said the other place she took a lesson and all they did was wet exits and she really wanted to learn more of the stokes and maneuvers. (We are all members of the same paddling groups and help with whatever anyone wants. Some people are just better at finding the right class for them.)

There are a lot of beginners who can roll, and there are also some good paddlers who can't.

It's just one form of self rescue. The important thing is that you have a reliable self rescue.

If you aren't comfortable in the water this class could really help with the amount of hands on step by step process, so that if and when you do capsize you will have a reliable wet exit and at least start towards rolling.

The reason to divide them up is that you get tired quick. If you get too tired to roll, I'm sure they wouldn't mind working on some other rescues.


Yup, read/listen/watch/do all those
Use every learning method you can get hold of. You’ll find that some ways work better for YOUR brain. I think you should definitely include live instruction, preferably one-on-one. What another person can instantly detect might take you many, many tries and wasted time (not to mention picking up bad habits).



I learned on sea kayak and rolled WW kayak after that. Though you’re doing the opposite, there’s nothing that should stop the skill from transferring. Get the body movement down instead of obsessing about the paddle or the boat, assuming decent fit.

2 hour…
…goes real fast when you have multiple student!



In the early years when I was learning, I’ve seen most roll classes advertise with a max of 2 student to 1 instructor!



Watching how instructors work, I’d say that’s probably the most efficient ratio. (so you have a chance to catch a breath after a few attempts)



Some classes use “assistant” in addition to the instructor. I’m not sure how well that model works. Basically, if the “assistant” is good, it’s as good as having additional instructors. Only thing I don’t understand is why bother with that setup, why not just have two seperate classes?



If the assistant is not a good teacher, it’s pretty useless. You might as well have you gf standing in the water catching you while you pratice on your own.



My personal experience in learning to roll, I found a 4 hour block work out much better. Though I understand sometimes the pool hours are simply setup that way and there’s no way around that limitation.

yep
"so you have a chance to catch a breath after a few attempts"



two bits of advise I give others taking classes: Take a short break after every few/several attempts to rest and maybe recover from getting dizzy. Also, BEFORE taking a class try some hipsnap practice using a pool, dock or doing Eskimo bow rescue work. For hipsnap practice I tell them to visualize pulling the boat under you with your hand only keeping you steady and not pulling you up. This lets you get the most of that precious and expensive instructor time. I think most classes include the hipsnap practice, but doing even more before taking a class makes it even easier.