would depend on the quality of the program. The class in which I assisted the lead instructor, is supervised by two L5 IT. There are a lot of different reasons a class will have an assistant instructor, and in my situation that decision is made by L5 instructors that have 60 years combined experience. Even to maintain ICE cert instructors assist an ICE class at or below that level. Last year when Dubside was giving a presentation he said it wasn't long ago when he was taking lessons there, so at least someone leaned a decent roll.
We use teamwork to our advantage and try to contribute something back to the community by providing affordable quality instructions in a wide variety of outdoor activities. Sometimes, they might include me for safety reasons, but they are very professional guidelines for an established community program. I don't know if I'll be a lead instructor but the other instructors have said positive things, I enjoy it, and during that class one person who had some anxiety issues requested that I be there the next night. We also have evaluation forms they fill out and we receive very positive feed back, myself included.
Being an ex-athlet, you’re probably pretty coordinated. And may even be pretty good at making moves that aren’t entirely natural. All those are good points.
Not being a dancer or gymast is not the end of the world. I’m not either. But I did have very strong ab muscle from another sport (think squash). Come to think of it, short of gymnastic and synchronized swimming, probably the second best sport that prepares for rolling is any kind of racket sport. All those torso rotation came in handy!
So, give it a shot. You might surprise yourself! :o)
If You Want… When the weather warms up, fire me off an email or just post here and I’ll help you as much as I can. If you’re willing to drive to Burlington I’m willing to help you as much a ‘non-three-letter-acronym’ guy can help.
Thanks Kudzu! We’ll have to wait and see how things go.
So far, my lack of rolling hasn’t been an issue - we’ve mostly been on relatively shallow rivers and calm lakes. I seem to get dumped about every river trip; well, I think I’m actually “abandoning ship” when I hit rocks at an angle and the kayak bow gets pushed up into the air at an tilted angle. Once the kayak is tilted enough for water to start coming in, I find myself pushing myself on out of the boat instead of trying to recover. This has happened 5 or 6 times and my head has never gone under water! I’ve kept a hold on my boat and my paddle every time except for letting the boat get away once, and I’ve always been able to walk to the river bank or an exposed rock to dump the water and re-enter. I don’t think the water was deep enough to roll in any of those places anyway.
My sister has only been dumped on one occasion, but that one instance resulted in her going in the water three times: once when she tilted over, then twice more as she tried to get back on her sit-on-top before I could circle back around to help her. She was in waist deep water and was able to get back on her kayak once I reached her and held her kayak still; I managed to help her without going over myself!
My real concern is going over in a lake. Our lake trips have been to very quiet lakes with little traffic and we’ve had no problems staying aboard; while we’ve ventured further from shore than we could swim, we always wear our PFDs. I’m a little uncomfortable with this - while I’m confident I could make it to shore using my kayak as a “float”, my sister seems to think that she could do an assisted self-rescue, even though she had trouble getting back on her SOT in waist-deep water. This especially concerns me since she’s talked about going paddling with other inexperienced paddlers while I’m at work; she’s bad to start talking and not pay attention to any obstacles she’s approaching! I try to watch out for both of us - hmmm… Maybe that’s why I’ve been dumped out more than she has!
Anyway, we have talked about the need to go to a lake where there are shallow areas where we can feel comfortable practicing rescues; the lakes we’ve been to so far haven’t really been suitable. I’d feel more comfortable if a more experienced paddler were around if/when we find a place to do that.
A SINK is a kayak that you sit inside and can use a spray deck. When you are talking about rolling a kayak it is a SINK with a spray deck. The risk is entrapment but with proper training it is not a risk for most people.
I would still suggest some kind of intro to kayaking class and or the rolling class if you can find one for SINK kayaks. The SINK has a lot more potential but takes more training.
Thanks yakwise… We have taken a couple of introductory classes prior to buying our kayaks; the first was on a public lake with an experienced kayaker. They had a choice of two kayak types; one was a 14.5 foot touring kayak and the other a 9.5 foot rec boat. I tried the touring kayak first and could not get in (even using the paddle as an outrigger as you describe) - I first went over on the opposite side of the “outrigger”, tried again and went over the other way. Fortunately, this was on the boat ramp! The instructor then put me in the much more stable rec boat. PFDs were mandatory, no skirts offered. The instructor did a pretty good safety talk before letting us in the boats and we practiced getting in and out and bracing while sitting on the bank. Once we got out in the water, he demoed various strokes and talked about when they were applicable.
This lake is very shallow with a lot of tree stumps underwater, so they don’t allow rolling. The instructor was wearing a skirt and he demoed both rolling and wet exits and self-rescue with a paddle float. He offered us the chance to practice a wet exit and self-rescue, but it was getting pretty dark and cool (this was back in the spring), so only one person did it. The instructor said that they usually had one or two capsizes during these beginner sessions, but we didn’t have any accidents (other than my misadventures getting started). By the time we were finished, it was pretty dark. The instructor said he hoped to have some rescue classes once it got warmer, but we missed it if it happened.
We then took a guided trip on a shallow river (the Dan) with a certified canoe instructor. This was in wide open rec boats, again w/ mandated PFDs. Since we were beginners, the instructor took us to a small pond first to introduce the various strokes and to cover river stuff that wasn’t very applicable to lake (ferrying, eddies, etc.). We then caught the shuttle and took a 5 mile river trip. As mentioned in an earlier message, this river has very few places where it’s actually deep enough to roll; the instructor recommended never rolling or even wearing a skirt unless you are also wearing a helmet!
A local outfitter jokes that he almost had t-shirts printed up during a major drought that said “I hiked the Dan.”
We were hooked, so I bought a hybrid touring/rec kayak (Easky 13 - it’s a 13.5 ft. British design boat) and my sister bought her SIT (14 ft. Manta). I won’t wear a skirt until/unless I learn to roll and we always wear our PFDs.
As mentioned earlier, sis says she’s afraid of being stuck inside a SINK, but we used them in both of the intro classes and she said it didn’t really bother her. Of course, both of those were rec boats with really big cockpits, but she didn’t even consider getting a SINK and went straight to a SIT.
you bet sorry I edited my post way down… you were smarter than I was on my fist day… as I said another guy on his fist day put on the spray skirt and got trapped for a while… without the spray skirt I think you will completely overcome any concerns of entrapment after you have done some wet exits… last year I assisted about 100 first day kayakers with that entire process… one instructor who had over 14 years experience said ok "time to practice wet exits, and she and I stood in the water and were next to one person at a time… no one had any trouble… they do it without the spray skirt… but go though the motions of taking it off… we even get them to beat on the side of the kayak… however on the next class the lead instructor demonstrated then asked if anyone wanted to practice so not as many wanted to get wet… it’s kind of a fine line to assess the students…
On our group trips we encourage practicing rescues and rolling whenever possible. On one trip we had three instructors and it was very warm on the beach… and everyone had a nice time even if they just wanted to stand in the water… but a lot of people don’t want to practice anything like that…
Anyway, I couldn’t get in my kayak almost quit on my first day, so don’t sell yourself short. Getting in can be the hardest part, but it sounds like you are taking the right direction… the SINK with bulk heads can even be easier to get in than a SOT… but it just takes a little more practice and training… once you are comfortable it’s just a matter of practicing…
so it really looks like you are headed in the right direction… if you are down this way we have several paddling groups as well…
I taught myself C to C, and also the slash roll. When WW kayaks were still relatively long, 9’ and over, the video “Grace Under Pressure” taught C to C as quickly learned and effective. When kayaks got much shorter, they tended to yaw out from under the C to C effort, and the older slash roll came back, as taught in Kent Ford’s rolling video.
I’m very tall, but I have long kayaks where it is hard to reach “down” around them to set up for C to C. The slash roll works better in such cases.
People who play a lot, and flip a lot, get into the Eric Jackson mode where they are not doing classical C to C or slash roll. They sense where the boat is, how the water is moving, where their body and paddle are, and roll up without much set up.
"I won't wear a skirt until/unless I learn to roll..."
Actually, skirt and rolling aren't particularly related. 90% of sea kayakers use skirt and never bother to learn to roll.
The only difference of whether or not wearing a skirt is the "wet exit" part, not the getting back up part.
Without skirt, you automatically fall out of the boat once the boat is upside down. With the skirt, you do need to pull the skirt off first...
What's more relavent is being able to get back into the boat after the capsize. After all, as you already found out, you can capsize even WITHOUT a skirt. You're in the same predicament with or without a skirt: need to get back in!
Anyone venturing beyond swimming distance from shore need to learn to get back into the boat after coming out of the boat! Rolling is ONE of the ways to get back in, but not the ONLY way.
??? -!!! Yes, I understand that a skirt and rolling aren’t mutual requirements. I just haven’t been in any conditions that would really require a skirt and I’m just not prepared to add the extra step of having to yank the skirt hoop until I’m more comfortable with going upside down!
"well, I think I'm actually "abandoning ship" when I hit rocks at an angle and the kayak bow gets pushed up into the air at an tilted angle. Once the kayak is tilted enough for water to start coming in, I find myself pushing myself on out of the boat instead of trying to recover. This has happened 5 or 6 times and my head has never gone under water! "
If you have a skirt on, water wouldn't be able to get into the cockpit. And you may be able to just push the boat away from the rock and continue on without having to abandon ship...
That is, assuming you're comfortable in dealing with pulling the skirt off while upside down. (BIG assumption though)
A couple of thoughts...
If you are in water shallow enough to hit a rock and have it lift your bow, you may want to consider a helmet. There are ways you can encounter hard objects with your head while not being fully upside down in stuff like that.
The larger cockpit of the boat it sounds like you are using will let in water more easily than one with a smaller cockpit. You may want to first simplify things by going to a boat with a smaller cockpit. So you'll have to spend a little more attention getting in - no big deal. You get used to that quickly. And you'll find at some point that it's easier to sit behind the cockpit and slide in anyway.
By the way, about the skirt/no skirt thing... there are a number of folks (including a statement on a blog under the Nantahala Outdoor Center's Paddling School blog) that rolling a boat loaded with water is easier than one without. I've known very good people who swear by this - personally I haven't given it much of a go because it is so wet. But assuming that the boat you are in has contact to facilitate rolling to start with, you could argue that a skirt would just get in the way. :-)
On what planet? “90% of sea kayakers use skirt and never bother to learn to roll”
I’m stunned that your experience is as you state. I know very few sea kayakers who cannot roll. Learning to roll is an expected attribute among kayakers I know.
Though I have had the experience more than once of ww folk being shocked that sea kayakers can roll…
Besides, sea kayaks tend to be far easier to roll than the boxy newer ww boats.
Abandoning ship… ABC, I’d thought about the skirt preventing water from coming in when tilted as I described, but I think that in most of those cases, I could have recovered anyway. I’m a fairly analytical guy and I’ve spent a fair amount of time thinking about this; as I’ve gotten more comfortable in the kayak, it seems as if these events have slowed down and I have more time to react - at first, I was slipping out almost automatically, but now I find that I have time to think a little about it. On our last river trip, this happened once and I remember actually deciding to “abandon ship.” The next time it happened, I consciously tried to stay in longer and was able to lean my upper body and recover, even though water had already started coming in the cockpit.
Due to my “automatic” responses, I think that a skirt wouldn’t have helped me too much since I really believe I could have recovered in most of my incidents.
Thoughts on Celia’s thoughts… Hmmm… I hadn’t really considered needing a helmet, but maybe so… My legs have certainly taken a beating on the rocks in the Dan River! I’m hoping that they’re healed up enough to not scare small children come spring time…
Regarding rolling w/o a skirt, there’s a video somewhere on YouTube showing a guy rolling a large cockpitted rec kayak without a skirt. He rolls two or three times without dumping or pumping the water out; at the end of the video, he’s still upright and paddling the kayak, but the rear of the kayak is completely underwater and the top of the cockpit is at or just below the water surface!
I would think a skirt would be good while learning to roll just because once you succeed, you can continue practicing until you’re too tired w/o having to take a break to dump or pump…
I agree and would like to add that because it's named a roll, people often think it's a hot-dog stunt or something for super hard core paddlers. It should be called something like "getting back up" or "un-capsizing". When some paddlers see people practicing a roll, they sometimes think "that's not for me" as if a capsize is not for them as well. When I first tried a kayak, my first thought was what do I do if I capsize? Because there's so many 24" wide flat bottom beginner kayaks, many people just assume it's not necessary. I have seen capsizes on totally flat rivers because of boat wakes. No harm done - usually in the summer but I know I would like to be self-sufficient and be able to "get back up" rather than swimming a kayak in a hundred yards from shore or pulling out the paddle float.
About the Easky 13 I didn’t realize which boat you had. I agree, the picture looks like it is outfitted with thigh braces intended to facilitate bracing, turning rolling etc. All you have to be is a size where your thighs land in them.
But I see a pretty high seat back in that picture, like it is sticking out above the cockpit. If no one has mentioned this yet, I’d suggest that you find a way to remove that and replace it with a backband that stays under the top of the cockpit or loosen it so that none of it is above the cockpit. The easiest roll to learn at first, and the one I’ve seen most people in longer boats started with these days, allows the paddler to lay towards the back deck on the way up. While your flexibility may not have you straight back, you will still find a seat back that restricts that motion to be a problem.
I paddled with probably 100-200 kayakers between the two coasts I lived since starting SEA kayaking. I know about 20 or so who can roll. The rest don’t.
thoughts If you do choose to wear a skirt, Celia’s advice on helmet is a very good one. After all, the skirt would make “abandoning ship” a bit slower and the helmet might comes in handy for that critical extra few seconds.
I think for an “analytical guy”, a bit of pre-class study by wating videos before the class could be very useful.
