In sessions at the Downeast Symposium, where we probably paddle with more people we don't know than around home, it is usual to be in a group of between five and ten among which only a couple can't roll yet. Those folks are usually working on it. We've gone to this symposium for four years now, so have been in a variety of groups at four days of sessions each year. I didn't keep count - but between two of us (we rarely take the same things on the same day) and over those few years it's been a lot of paddlers.
We have connected with other pnetters and local paddlers when we vacation in Maine, for a number of years. In any given group there may be one non-roller, but this is also usually someone with very limited time actually sea kayaking.
At home, where we have to drive a good bit to make it to the ocean, there are people who have done things like gone to surf training in the spring off of RI, or vacation and actually paddle on the ocean when they can. More than half, usually most of the first bunch can roll, albeit rolling successfully (like not getting knocked over again) in surf is still a problem for one of them (me). As to those who pass thru our local evening paddle group and seem to have solid ocean time, a good half of them seem to be able to roll.
Of our primary paddling pod for locally bigger water, like lakes with a good fetch, (well) more than half can roll.
Yes, we have seen large herds of people on the water occasionally, in sea kayaks, who have apparently met to do a big weekend paddle somewhere on the ocean in the summer. And from what we saw, these groups are usually loaded to the gills with arm paddling and some other details that suggest they don't take the same view of the risk offshore in 55 degree water as we do. But we see maybe one of these groups every couple of years in Maine. The rest of the time, if we meet people in serious sea kayaks they usually present closer to our group.
We've also seen groups like ConnYak do paddles up the Hudson River occasionally. Granted I didn't see them all drop and do a synchronized roll, but a number of them are pnetters that we've encountered here and there individually and I am pretty sure that better than half can roll. Same goes for North Shore Paddlers Network, who have quite stringent guidelines for their trips and leadership. In fact you should check out the NSPN website for a good view of what a more aggressive sea kayaking group is doing.
It may be that the groups you have encountered out of NYC and San Francisco attract a disproportionate number of people with more money for sea kayaking and less discipline about how to do it. But that is not who we paddle with, or who a number of people of this board who sea kayak are paddling with. We don't "tour" - we spend some time on our paddling to at least try to do it right.
BTW, my husband and I have also spent some time in lower class WW, also taking lessons and trying to do it right. So we have run into this kinda crappy attitude from WW paddlers probably more than most long boaters, but to to good it seems to be a minority of them these days.
I read somewhere that "self rescue" wasn't a good term for rolling but for the life of me I can't remember why. Maybe it was because rolling is really rescue prevention.
Wow. I guess you really paddle with a different type of paddler than most I know.
With the exception of some afterwork club paddles, the great majority of folk with whom we paddle can roll. For the most part, the newest paddlers in our pod are working towards a roll if they don't already have one.
My sense from intersection with NSPN and ConnYak (2 of the most notable regional sea kayaking clubs), is that rolling is common among them as well. This is also true for the folk I've met at the Lake Champlain and Downeast Symposiums.
Though all of my paddling thusfar has been in the Northeastern quarter of the US (Maryland to Maine, Atlantic coast to Lake Champlain, etc), I can comfortably say that I intersect with over 100 paddlers a year.
I won't assert that 90 or even 80% of sea kayakers can roll, though I would hesitate to assert the opposite.
"I guess you really paddle with a different type of paddler than most I know. "
It appears we do.
Most of the paddlers I paddle with are usually the type that paddle to get to places. So the focus is paddling for distance rather than rolling in 15 different ways. Conversation tend to go in the direction of tides and currents or the wind effect to the water, not the difference between C2C vs sweep roll (which I'm guilty of).
Many of them camp. They're almost always paddling with loaded boats. (Even those who can roll don't usually "pratice" with their loaded boat. Though that's besides the point).
As multi-day tourer and campers, the majority (myself included) don't go out when weather is already iffy, becasue one typically need to allow for weather to change for the worse while you're a day or two paddle time from your launch. (also, it's rather unpleasent to camp when it's blowing and stormy). So it's fair to say kayak campers are more fair weather paddlers than day paddlers. More emphasis on avoiding bad weather than surviving them.
Maybe it's just me. But so far I found campers and rollers don't intersect that much. A few of the good paddlers (who could roll) I invited on multi-day trips turned out to be inexperienced campers. While a lot of kayak campers just aren't very much into rolling or playing. My guess is there's only so much time to paddle, people are gravitated to what appeal to them first and focus on that.
Hmmm... The folks with whom I paddle view a roll as the most efficient and safest capsize recovery. We find that you get where you're going faster and easier if people roll when knocked over rather than end up out of their boat.
A roll can be very useful when paddling off the coast when conditions exceed predictions, having to land through surf, or negotiate moving water.
Self-rescue skills don't preclude camping. We both camp out of our boats (usually leave no trace) and know how to roll ;-)
I am definitely missing the part where anyone said that sea kayakers who can roll spend excessive amounts of time doing just that. Especially to the exclusion of paying attention to conditions, tides and nav issues. No one I know who has any decent training would do that.
Using a loaded kayak for skills practice in general seems like something that no one would do very often, just because you'd have to take the time to carry all the crap to the boat and stow it for something that probably takes place a short distance from shore. But taking the opportunity to roll or otherwise work skills with a boat while on a trip where it was loaded - as long as the energy was there I don't know why you wouldn't do it. It'd be a great opportunity to see how it behaved - I didn't waste any time testing it out on the first camping trip after I had my roll.
I also think you misunderstood my comment about touring - we paddle to go places, but not as part of a tour group which seemed to be what you were referring to. We put together our own bunch. And tide is very much part of paddling the coast of Maine since it's commonly 10 or so feet. Wind and bad weather... some places like Maine you just have to be able to handle it. Even in the best days of summer, you need to be able to return home thru pea soup fog after a gorgeous day and overnight on an island. We have.
Rolling, and the basic comfort with being offside that goes with having a roll, should be a core skill for taking more extensive trips offshore. Yes, if someone only goes out in larger groups you may be able to get away with just assisted rescues, most times, most days. But a large group where most of the paddlers are limited to assisted or paddle-float type of self-rescue options has higher risks when conditions ramp up than those with more individual skills.
"Using a loaded kayak for skills practice in general seems like something that no one would do very often, just because you'd have to take the time to carry all the crap to the boat and stow it for something that probably takes place a short distance from shore. But taking the opportunity to roll or otherwise work skills with a boat while on a trip where it was loaded - as long as the energy was there I don't know why you wouldn't do it. It'd be a great opportunity to see how it behaved - I didn't waste any time testing it out on the first camping trip after I had my roll. "
That's exactly my point. No one is silly enough to load a boat just for the heck of pratice rolling. But once a boat is loaded for touring, that would be a good chance to roll it but I've never seen anyone does that, even those I KNOW who CAN roll (and seen them rolling for fun on day trips)!
But that might coincide with my personal experience of those same people being relatively inexperienced campers. So they were too pre-occupied with paddling a loaded boat or whatever. I just don't know.
I'm not implying people who know how to roll neglect to consider conditions. But I AM implying a lot of the people who go camping tend to go in condition that don't remotely neccessitate rolling. So even if they would roll when they're out "playing" in their "play boat", they don't when they're out in their touring boat.
"we paddle to go places, but not as part of a tour group which seemed to be what you were referring to. We put together our own bunch. "
Chicken and egg? Sounds to me you pre-select who you tour with... rollers who regularly hang out together in the first place.
More about the Easky 13 I fit it pretty well and have used the thigh braces to help in edging; I haven’t practiced edging enough for it to be 2nd nature (I have to think “hey, edging would help me turn quicker right now”), so I’ve done it mostly on calm lakes and not on the river to avoid rocks.
The seat back actually has two positions; it folds over so that it is below the top of the cockpit. It actually sort of “snaps” into the fully extended or folded over positions - there’s a demo video on the Venture site, but I don’t expect anyone here to go look at it unless they’re looking to buy one themselves. I find it more comfortable in the folded position, so it’s generally folded and out of the way for any potential rolling.
Kayak club advantage Many kayak club members roll because it’s so readily available. ConnYak has pool sessions all winter and there are other pools too. Usually $20. ConnYak pool sessions are 4 hrs. Many times the curious arrive with no intention of rolling but perhaps playing around or doing a paddle float thing. Before you know it, someone is holding them over on their side. A short time later they are pulling themselves up to the surface - and they’re on their way. The association with good paddlers and availability of pools and loads of people who teach anyone are some of the major advantages of belonging to clubs. There’s also the subliminal non-commitment aspect of arriving at a pool “practice session” instead of shelling out $60 and going through something that maybe you might not enjoy. Plus at pool sessions, people have a fun time with no real goals.
I get the impression that wilsoj2 and celia travel in some prety rarified air. In his DVD, John Dowd says that he and “mere mortals” tend to travel around 2 knots, adjusted for sightseeing. Wilsoj2 in another thread has said that those who can’t keep up are pretty much weeded out by self selection (4+ knots if I recall).
From what I know of the West coast, I’m guessing that only 50% of BASK and WSK and OOPS members can roll, if that. This may be an East Coast/West Coast thing. Or it could be BCU-think raising its head again.
Right on! "Many kayak club members roll because it’s so readily available.
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Agree 100%.
I went to the pool to learn about paddle-float rescue and it was suggested to me to try to roll. Since I’ve rolled WW boats, albeit 5 year prior, I tried and quickly got it back.
Rolling isn’t all that difficult as far as I can tell.
On one pool session, I saw a guy learning to do high brace “the right way”: that is, with hip snap instead of relying primary on the paddle. He was doing so well we suggested he try going entirely over and tried a “deep high brace”, a.k.a. a C2C roll… He came right up!!!
Having said that, there’re people who’re into "learning (or “trying”) things. There’re people who’re NOT into trying different ways of doing things. The latter don’t tend to come to the pool. Or even if they do, they left as soon as they can get back into the boat.
Jay makes a good point. Sometimes its the culture or opportunity that distinguishes those who do and those who don’t roll. I started my seakayaking journey with a much more advanced paddler who regularly rolled on our outings which encouraged me to learn to do the dratted thing. Not so much as the optimum self-rescue technique but more of a mental challenge. Yeah, I can do that too. (Of course it took me the better part of two years to get it down.) Also I live near Walden Pond where the Walden Pond Scum Society can be seen frequently in their SOF kayaks and GP paddles practicing all variety of rolls. For them it appears to be an art form more like ballet than insurance against a capsize. So when in Rome do as they do is as much a reason why some of us roll and others don’t.
My impression… …is the ratio of roller on the east coast is even lower than on the west coast.
I think that’s due partly to the lack of “play water” (rock garden and surf season) on the east coast. There’re also a lot more calm water paddling in the east than west. So a lot more kayak tourer/camper who go out on calm days to photo-shoot and sight-seeing. They don’t see rolling as a neccesity. Many don’t even consider kayaking an athletic activity! Just an eco-friendly vihecle to get to a quiet campsite…
While on the west coast, either you’re paddling big ocean water, or you’re paddling tiny little ponds, which gets old quick. Granted, there’re also a lot more SOT paddlers out west. But my impression of those who choose to use SINK, they’re more into playing and will be rolling eventually. Still, as your observation of BASK & WSK, which I used to paddle with, less than 50% can roll to save their life.
Rolling at Walden Do not discount the value in practicing many different types of rolls. While it might not be on the radar screen or of interest to too many paddlers, there is a benefit to finding yourself in many different positions underwater and being able to recover from them. Many of the people you see at Walden also own and paddle sea kayaks and are quite proficient in rolling in rough water and surf. Once learned, your roll of choice’s execution is the same whether you are recovering from an intentional capsize or an accidental capsize. The grace you see at Walden is in large part due to people being very comfortable in the water and using good body mechanics to move the kayak. Since there are so many proficient rollers at Walden, it is a good place to learn from peers.
We started paddling because we spend time on the coast of Maine. We wanted to get out to those islands.
When we bought our first boats, we received an excellent lesson from a young man who covered more in one session than I can believe even now.
The first year we brought those boats to Maine we got caught in a storm we only survived by luck and intestinal fortitude. We then realized we needed better boats and more training. That was about a decade ago.
Back then it seemed rolling was mostly for ww paddlers and very ambitious sea kayakers. It took a long time for Celia and I to each get our rolls.
As time went on we intersected with more paddlers interested in improving their skills to be able to safely paddle more. By 5 years ago it was common among sea kayakers we knew to roll.
The last few years, we've seen very new paddlers want to learn to roll their first season - or their first pool session.
We were fortunate in intersecting with Tom Bergh in 2003. At Tom's suggestion we attended the Gulf of Maine Sea Kayak Symposium (2003, 2004). We also met Steve Maynard at that time. The possibilities of paddling broadened greatly.
Also a few years ago, 2 friends who I knew as sea kayakers who did ww took me over to the Sac. I didn't do well that first time, but luckily my friends were not disgusted and offered to coach me (and Celia and another sea kayaker). We also signed up for ww class(es). We only got in because one of those friends was known to be an excellent paddler and offered to help with the class. When both Celia and I rolled when knocked over and did not need rescue over 2 days of work on the Deerfield, it seemed to indicate to a few of the hardcore ww folk that sea kayakers could be real paddlers ;-)
We now sometimes take our sea kayaks into class II ww for fun as well as occasionally getting in our ww boats to run a river. We do Spring lumpy/moving water training in long boats every year as a season warm-up. We also attend the Downeast Symposium every September.
We've paddled out to Eastern Egg Rock to see the Puffins and played in Sullivans Falls. The more skilled we become the more places we can paddle.
We have a good pod of friends who also enjoy increasing their skills/range. It doesn't feel rarefied - just great fun!
(BTW, we have found rock gardening, tide races, surf etc... on the Northeast coast. Though the surf is not as big as the West coast, the New England coast can provide fun and challenging paddling environments)
Thanks for all the responses! Since they’ve moved the location of the rolling class, I’ve decided to skip this session - the moved location really screws up the scheduling for me - but I’m going to keep an eye out the next session and hope to go.
For some reason, my sister seems extremely adverse to doing any type of pool sessions; when I said I thought I’d be more comfortable learning in a pool, she said that it would be “better to learn in a lake where you aren’t as comfortable.” That “logic” confused me a bit and I couldn’t formulate an response that wouldn’t make her mad… I’ll broach the subject again later.
Anyway, we are looking into taking a kayaking vacation around March with one of the outfitters listed here on pNet (http://www.uncommonadv.com/kayaking/tropical/). It’s lead “by professional guide ACA/Instructors.” Sis has corresponded with them via e-mail, and the operator has stated he’ll help us with our rescues and rolling.
