I say 360 or 180 same same
Delmarva?
This thread “rolled” off track a bit. As the OP I’m entitled to bring it back 
!
Update - up to 79 successful rolls. Did 38 on Thursday, with two swims after second attempt failures. 38 rolls in about 2hrs takes it out of ya! Planning another couple of sessions next week. My technique is most like a Standard Greenland (lay back) roll - I know everyone has their opinions but in this early stage of my rolling journey it’s what’s working for me (GP user).
I’ve been inspired by this video…
https://youtu.be/JBOJDFnvyDo?si=0E-HFbo5wQFFUz_0
Steve has some other nice videos paddling in Maine, close to where my daughter lives and where I’ll be (again) in 3 weeks!
Is it deliberate practice as defined by Dr Anders Ericsson? Are you working with a coach / someone who has actual professional paddlesports credentials? A roll is one of the movements in kayaking where you can really fuck yourself up. It’s not about repetition.
it is about perfect practice.
Pro Tip 1: Do a few rolls (or forward strokes or any other motion). Stop. Think about what you felt. What felt spot on? What felt inefficient? Correct on your next sequence. That thought process is essential in building accurate neurological pathways.
Pro Tip 2: If you have access to a large pool with diving board the best angle for video analysis is directly above you. Have someone standing on the driving board and videoing directly below them. That way you see what is happening underwater.
Good luck!
TRAQS Fest - Florida
Around the Chesapeake Bay, Delmarva stands for Delaware, Maryland, and Virginia.
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Yup, and it this context it’s recognized as shorhand for the annual week of QajaqUSA-sponsored Greenland kayaking skills training at a camp on Rehoboth Bay.
The bearded “man in black”, renowned Greenland rolling guru, Dubside, whose photo was shared, is a regular coach at that and other such events.
Headed there myself again in October.
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And TRAQS = Traditional Qajaqers of the South. A weekend Greenland skills immersion. No Euro blades allowed!
I came away from last year’s event with two new rolls and a new appreciation for where qajaqing all started - Greenland.
A couple of things that have not been emphasized enough to my Prana brother, @MickP in my opinion:
- Yoga, yoga and more yoga. This is the way.
As a competitive cyclist, I was really only flexible in one dimension with little or no flexibility through my hips and little rotation capability through my thoracic core. Daily yoga has given me a new range of motion that helps with all aspects of paddling but is essential to Greenland paddling and rolling. The Greenlanders in fact developed a training methodology called Greenland Ropes (sort of a suspended yoga) for building strength, flexibility, and coordination.
Stiiks (West coast Greenland paddling event), Delmarva and TRAQS Fest events start every morning with an hour or so of yoga. Dubside (who typically attends all of these events) often leads these ritualistic morning sessions. - Rolling really begins out of the boat and on the ground. Roll specific learning modules typically begin doing some “rolls” on the sand or grass. This movement rehearsal helps the body to learn to fire muscle groups and learn new muscle recruitment paths.
- “Looks good, do it slower” - Tim Gallaway. Rolling is not about beating your “opponent” - the water. Instead, it’s about working with the water. Rolling should be dynamic but, energy efficient. Even rolls such as the Storm Roll, which look explosive, are really energy efficient with the core idea being moving the boat and body around the paddle.
- Boat outfitting. The Prana is no Illaga. With it’s Danish design, the Prana has a high deck to facilitate its knees up cockpit position. For me, adding some “thigh bumps” (custom padding added to thigh braces) helped with my lower body drive.
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Congratulations!
Don’t forget the off-side practice too. One of the best drills for me was trying an off-side roll, failing, and then re-setting up to come up on the on-side.
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Agree with you 100% on the benefits of yoga, particularly for cyclists who want to kayak.
I often invite local friends to kayak with me (I have a fleet of touring kayaks and all the gear for them, partly so I can recruit others to join me but mostly because I am a nut case hoarder who can’t resist a bargain…) But several of my most outdoor-enthusiastic friends are avid cyclists and not one of them can sit up straight in a kayak for long and paddle without excruciating pain. These folks are younger than me, one by 16 years, and their lack of hip and quad flexibility and lower back strength is tragic.
I’ve never been what I would call an “athlete” but I was a trained dancer (ballet and modern) throughout my childhood and youth and, besides the flexibility and strength training that those entailed, I was introduced to yoga as the “cool down” after a rigorous 4 hour master class with one of Martha Graham’s proteges when I was 15 and was an instant convert. I’d never felt so relaxed and ache-free after such an extended work out. Yoga was also useful through my 30s when I worked in heavy construction, though I also added martial arts training (Tai Chi and Shotokan karate) which utilize similar warmup and cooldown, as well as meditation, routines. I’m not as regular as I used to be in practicing any of them but I’ve integrated the stretches and overall body and core awareness, especially of sitting and standing posture, into my daily life and activities and I think it has helped me stay limber at 75.
I’ve joined Dubside’s yoga sessions at Michigan QTC and Delmarva – well worth adding this practice to one’s paddling preparedness.
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Thanks both, valuable advice - the community here is a real treasure. I’ve been working on strength and flexibility, although not much yoga per se. The instructor I had doing the WW type rolls was impressed with my flexibility (at least, for an old guy[61]).
Weather has not been so good these last few days, so it might be Thursday. I know slowing down will be good, and I think I’m still not getting the layback quite right - too much effort on the recovery - more like a hybrid WW sweep roll. But overall I’m feeling good about progress and, probably most especially, on being comfortable to try stuff, tweak without being desparate to just GET UP!
I will try some offside rolls too, but I feel I’ve still got enough to work on onside.
I’ll take a look/think at the thigh pads too - I THINK they’re fine, but I do have some closed cell handy…
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If you feel like there is a lot of effort at the end of a sweep roll you are not doing it correctly. It is at that exact moment that you should be dumping all pressure.
Likewise, a C to C should also be effortless. Those who are referencing either roll as being fatiguing simply are not putting their bodies in the position where it will do the most good.
Kent Ford has a video on the sweep roll. Look that up.
I think it’s useful to just practice the “last half” of the back finishing roll with a GP in order to refine that part of it and reinforce the muscle memory – also as a warm up before diving into full roll repetitions. Hang out and relax floating in an extended balance brace, then do a slow controlled slide onto the stern deck, keeping your neck arched and your face lower than your chest. Less tiring and not as hard on your body as continuously rotating 360 degrees.
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How does that work in 15’ waves with 3’ of chop?
I plan to never find out 
I know a lot of folks who start with the SGR also add the storm roll, which is probably better under robust conditions, but I’m a way from that. It’s a journey.
And yes, I realized that a lot of effort means that I’m doing it wrong, which I why I called myself out. Hoping to get back out tomorrow. I have done some “correctly” (at least, it felt like it) but it’s not consistent. I will try the focus on that last part - I want to avoid it becoming “how many can I do” - quality over quantity.
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Instead Roll down, start from lying on the back deck, roll finish position, slowly slide in, no just falling in. start the roll the same as you end it, controlling its entirety, hold the decent back and slow, as slow as you can.
then reset as you hit the upside down position, then Roll up on the other side. slowly, as one continuous slow movement.
I call this a rotisserie roll
incorporates activity for roll practice for both sides
done as slowly as you can it looks to onlookers like your on a rotisserie
Practice this with water entry from one side then the other alternate back and forth it will do away with any on side/off side in your rolling
it is also safer than diving at whatever is below because you are going slow and controlled does away with dependance on momentum as a crutch. Practicing and counting on a roll using momentum will make you dependent on it and it will not always be there.
Best Wishes
Roy
Awesome position to work from. I think that you are working with someone at NOC? Did they get a pool where your instructor can be shooting video from above? If not the river below NOC might still be viable. I haven’t taught out of there for years.
In an efficiently (good) sweep roll your blade starts to feather to a position where it does zero good a little over half way through. That insures that you are dumping pressure.
Note that a sweep roll and C to C do exactly the same thing, and operate on exactly the same mechanics: you are rotating your torso and engaging the offside knee to bring the boat around. Either can be done as casually or as fast as needed. Guaranteed that if I am playing someplace like Skook or running something that has 20,000cfs and is dropping 100’ / mile I want a fast, crisp roll. If I am modeling for students movements are slower and more deliberate.
Thanks. I’ve been rolling down slowly anyway (sculling) due to vertigo avoidance - I had a couple of occurrences and it’s no fun. Commenting on my friend Steve’s YT videos I’ve been surprised how many people have real trouble with nausea after a few rolls. Fortunately I haven’t had that problem. I’ll definitely give this a try when I feel ready for “offside” work. Maybe next week.
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Ear drying solution after every roll or playboating session.