Kent Ford has a few great videos out there on the sweep roll, with an emphasis on a proper (safe and efficient) finish.
That is not an answer to my question.
For canoeing, that is paddling with a single blade paddle, your onside stays the same when making a cross stroke when rolling – where a cross stroke becomes an onside stroke in the end.
I was under the impression that this was also the case with kayaking, but your description suggests otherwise?
I find this confusing because it would mean that your on- and offside changes from one to another and back during a roll with a double blade paddle?
Nope.
Wow, the misunderstanding of Greenland rolling exhibited here is rather disheartening. Hip snapping is not a primary aspect of GRs, it is torso, head and arm position and using the buoyancy of the paddle and the natural dynamics of the boat hull. There are many different GRs, the back deck finishing one is just the most common initial instruction, likely because it can be taught as a natural progression from a balance brace.
I learned the C to C during whitewater kayak classes in my late 20’s so I know what kind of effort that technique requires. Makes sense in a white water boat but is a drag in a 16’ sea kayak. I’ve been coached on both back and forward finishing rolls at QajaqUSA sponsored skills camps in both traditional skin on frame and more conventional plastic and composite low volume touring kayaks. I have vastly preferred Greenland style paddles and boats for 20 plus years and the older I get, the more I appreciate their lightness, kindness to my joints and ease of use (just turned 75 and used them to paddle about 35 miles of New England coast last week, some of it in pretty hairy conditions).
Have also encountered ACA certified instructors at other events who openly scoffed at Greenland paddles and skills as some sort of pointless “hipster fad”. So I really don’t give a crap what their opinion of these ancient tools and skills are, and neither should anyone else.
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When finishing on the back deck it also allows the paddler to not change the paddle position. When teaching, one way to know that the student sat up early is to note the bow of the kayak moved to the side . This is because the perfectly supporting paddle changed to a sweep stroke as the paddler sat up.
Rolling has never been a strong suit for the ACA. And YES Willowleaf , Greenland Rolling is a mystery to them.
It appears to me that some of the statements in this thread are possibly AI generated.
The ACA instructors these days have mostly at least dabbled with a Greenland paddle and are more knowledgeable than this thread shows.
as early as 2002 or so I saw many Greenland style paddles hidden amongst the piles of gear in many ACA certified instructors cars. Not too much longer after, the ACA decided to have a Greenland certification. (of course you first needed to certify with a euro paddle to teach Greenland)
I am not aware of any one being turned away from a trip or a class unless they go and get a proper paddle like happened years ago. if the paddler can show and perform the same skills required using their Greenland paddle that would be required if they had a proper paddle.
I agree, something smells very wrong about a certain participant in this thread.
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Well at least I learned that I naively assumed the terms onside and offside should be used consistently across kayaking and canoeing. For that matter “SEIC” sure doesn’t insure consistency at all…
But no problem for me, as it is just one more thing I have to remember about the differences between kayaking and canoeing when reading about techniques.
I’m just trying to get upright! Will be back out this week, continuing my expiration and will be trying to be more “Greenlandish”.
The problem is not using the terms onside an off side. It is in using those terms in the wrong context.
Those terms ca be use as long as you are staying upright because you are only explaining something that is two dimensional, on the same plane.
When you are talking about rolling, you are talking about something that is three dimensional. The paddle is not a necessarily active working blade on the side of entry. So if you enter the water for a roll on you right hand side , the blade might not be active on that side . You can’t use the term onside or off side to denote the active paddle. You could come up on either side and that will only be determined during the roll.
The roll won’t still determine the term used when trying to use on side or off side because you need a reference for those to work and you don’t have one for those term to work.
If on a river, you can use river right or river left since that would give a reference to something that is a constant.
If on a lake you can line your reference by being parallel to the shore and using the terms shore side or lake (ocean) side.
Either way you can.t use the terms on side and offside when talking about rolling. This is true for both kayaks and canoes.
I did some research and I think you are right.
The problem (for me) was that I was confused by “pulling the offside knee” that in my interpretation should be “pulling the onside knee” because that knee is on the onside of my paddle stroke unless you right yourself with a cross stroke which sounds unlikely if possible at all?
If you are underwater, and set up on your right side, your left knee is your offside knee, and that is what is engaged through functional core tension. It has been consistent with all of the instructors that I have certified, and all of the ITs and ITEs that I have worked with and mentored.
If you remember the Finlandia, I was the race director. That should provide you with context.
What is your background? IT? ITE? Served on the committee?
At least with the instructors that I have certified, and the crew that I paddled with out of LaPush, Puget Sound, Skookumchuck… Not a greenland paddle in site. If you roll is not crisp and fast at Skook you “go on tour” you and your boat will mystery move for a bit of time in the massive whirlpools. Granted, my community was a bit more on the performance side. Many more surf skis and wing paddles.
I also believe that ACA’s “Traditional” addendum is just that - an addendum to Coastal Kayak. You first have to be certified in some level of Coastal. Not sure if it is the “open Water” level these days, or one of the lesser certs.
For canoeing the terms onside and offside are differently used in another context as it seems.
There the onside is the side you are making a paddle stroke on not being a cross stroke.
A cross stroke is a paddle stroke done on your offside.
If you switch paddling sides, your offside becomes your onside. With a double blade paddle this comes natural of course, but with a single blade paddle it involves changing hand positions on the paddle.
For tandem paddlers though the terms onside and offside refer to the bow paddler’s paddling side when relating to maneuvers, because the bow paddler generally makes the cross strokes then.
(So a move to the onside in a solo canoe is related to the solo paddler and in a tandem canoe to the bow paddler.)
When relating to paddling techniques only, the terms onside and offside are the same for both solo and tandem paddlers.
Yeah it’s complicated a bit.
In that context, when underwater you more or less start rolling with a cross stroke that changes to a normal stroke at the end while pulling on your onside knee, that is the knee on the side you are making a normal paddle stroke, in this case a high brace to right yourself.
Yes
Any craft has the ability to be rolled with a cross stroke … but not all paddlers have the ability. Also the craft has to be proper outfitted. For canoes this would be bagged and have both foot and thigh straps, for kayaks it means the thigh braces ( or masik) and for some people it would also mean foot support of some kind.
In Greenland rolling the roll that comes to mind is the cross arm roll not sure which blade in this roll would qualify it as a cross stroke roll but I am sure one of them must.
Yeah I thought so, but have never acually thought about it or saw it
but found an example here:
seems a struggle though…
ADDIT:
in a decked canoe it looks easier:
showing both onside and offside rolls.
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“In that context, when underwater you more or less start rolling with a cross stroke that changes to a normal stroke at the end while pulling on your onside knee, that is the knee on the side you are making a normal paddle stroke, in this case a high brace to right yourself.”
Negative. If you engage the onside knee you will be pulling the boat down on top of you. Another way to think about it - if you lift your head first you have to engage that onside knee. The tension on that side of the body is what is activated to raise the head - bringing the boat down on top of you and making a roll impossible. As I said in a post to OP, the head means nothing. It is a symptom, not. a cause. You want to engage the opposite, or offside knee. That motion is what creates tension to bring the boat around.
You are also not at all starting with a cross stroke. A roll and a forward stroke, once you have a lot of training with really smart people, are not too different. The set up for a roll is not unlike the ready position of a forward stroke - all torso rotation - nothing else.
At 0:08 from this video you can see the paddle stroke starts on the offside and thus can be seen as a cross stroke that changes to an onside stroke as the boat turns around while the blade stays in the water. And in that context his left knee in this case is his offside knee. And in the video it even looks like he is pushing his offside knee down, but certainly not pulling up.
Indeed a forward stroke is just a draw stroke to pull yourself forward and can also be done as a cross stroke, called cross forward stroke then.
Because I am very isolated from most touring kayakers I use common language to communicate when I am trying to teach what limited skills I have to pass on. I say 1/2 roll and full roll, and I say clockwise and counterclockwise.
I am certain these terms do not conform to what’s said in more common circles of kayakers, but no one ever had trouble understanding what I was saying when using them. If it’s a half roll and you go in on the right and come up on the right, you “capsize clockwise and recover counterclockwise.”
And so on…
If it’s a full roll I can just say “go in clockwise and continue clockwise to recover.”
Or “go in counterclockwise and continue counterclockwise to recover.”
The people I have taught may have to re-learn terms in other areas if they go to other places but if they ask an instructor "does the kayak go clockwise or counterclockwise, all instructors will understand the question easily, and be able to pick up where I left off.
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