Hey Jim, come on up to Newfoundlands
east coast…sea cliffs, deep water, unlimited fetch from the east, large swells, feeding humpbacks, fins, orca’s and seals, and water temps in the summer of about 60 degrees (usually 40 - 60 fahreneit - forgive the spelling, I’m a canadian HAHAHAHA)
Rescues are required (in my humble opinion - as a guide on the north atlantic). I practice rolls and rescues at least one night a week - put aside of rthree hours of just practice - my instructors always taught me to learn as much as you can, that way when one method fails - you have options. I am not just talking about personal protection and rescue (as important as that is)- but what about paddling partners, or just paddlers you come across along your route. I have often come across kayakers who are terrified at getting their heads wet - have absolutely NO roll, and no practice doing assisted rescues. Given our water temps are COLD all year round, efficient rescues are so important. The best (as proven time and again, to reduce time in the water) is the roll. If a paddler cannot roll - here there is no shortage of people ready to teach you the roll.
The thought of ranking how important rescues and rolls are is ridiculous - RESCUE is required. The only substitute for a lack of rescue skills is, unfortunately - drowning, possibly hypothermia.
Just three nights ago, a longliner fishing boat capsized with eight men aboard, four of which drowned, only two bodies of which were recovered. The surface water temp was 14 degrees celsius - all points to being able to rescue yourself when immersed. I realize that a longliner is nothing like a kayak, but a swimmer in the water from a longliner, is the same as a swimmer from a kayak - with no means to get out of the water.
Learn to rescue. Yourself and others…
In the meantime, I’d love to hear a strong argument about why there is no need to practice these skills…Speaking as a guide, that thought is RIDICULOUS. I think that my rescue skills are some of the most important skills I have…which is why I am still in business, and which is why new kayakers (very new) hire guides. Any expierenced or seasoned kayaker (who truthfully considers themselves advanced) knows the value of rescues, whether they be in Florida, Oregon, Maine, Newfoundland or the canadian arctic.
Good luck to all.
Jim.
pash made a good point
I agree with it. “Making stupid mistakes seems to be the big killer”. That sums up everything I said about common sense.
The “foaming at the mouth” crowd wanted to read that Pash said that rolling was a bad thing and not worth learning. He didn’t even imply that. He just said it was not necessary. And look, here we are at 80 posts and no one even argued the salient point. All we see are a bunch of tangents involving some character slams and extreme mis reading of the original post. And That is why I enjoy coming back every once in a while…this is mildly amusing.
It couldn’t be otherwise could it?
Besides my comments aren’t helping. I put this thread over 100 with one of my comments. Unless I go back and delete one.
Straw man argument (repeat)
Repeating myself.
No one said rolling was “essential”. No one said it was a “required” skill.
Nor was anybody truely “foaming at the mouth”.
Again, many people live long and happy lives without rolling. That’s no reason not to try to get a roll.
Also, the point of bringing up WW experience is that it supports the fact that a roll: can be a “basic” skill, is the most effective self-rescue technique; and is usable in “extreme” circumstances.
If the boat is rollable, it’s not that hard to learn to roll. Learning to roll does not mean you can’t or shouldn’t learn other methods.
READ AGAIN
"The first failure tired him so much that each successive try kept getting weaker. People on this forum emphasize practicing the roll over the importance of practicing re-entry. "
This is the "straw man" argument. I like to see where any post states: "Forget re-entry techniques. Just learn to roll." I haven't seen it in my five years here. Perhaps rolling may be talked about more but the reality (and even for those talk rolling here) is that re-entry techniques are almost always learned first. As one learns to roll, re- entry techniques continues to practiced generally. Generally it is the folks who believe in skills development, including rolling, that make it point to also practice re-entry and other skills.
Then there are some like you... You don't even seem to practice re-entry much from what I have read from you here. Your first line and only line of preparation (and certainly workable) is to stay near shore, on flat water, when it's warm and no more than a breeze. Any variation from those conditions and you stay home. I am glad it works for you. But not every one aspires to your level of high "common sense" and dearth of skills.
sing
"Making stupid mistakes…
“Making stupid mistakes seems to be the big killer”
Yes - exactly.
What everyone (besides Pahs) is trying to tell you is having only very limited and rarely practiced recovery skills IS making a series of VERY stupid mistakes.
Salient enough?
Limiting your skill development is a mistake on two levels:
One is the obvious safety benefit of having more proven/tested options for a variety of conditions/situations. Been through all that above.
The second mistake - which is more applicable to your warm water paddling (and also covered above) - is that you miss a lot of fun and a major expansion of your paddling enjoyment. Yes, the roll is a great rescue - but the payoff for learning is a LOT more than that. Everything gets better. You gain a whole new appreciation for your boat through your improved handling. You can better tap its potential and it does things better. Previously challenging waters become more fun and more paddling opportunities open up. Even doing exactly the same paddles you do now - the experience will improve. You simply don’t know what your missing.
It’s not about need. You may not want to, but that’s your loss. Something to look at as a missed opportunity if you don’t. It’s your choice - but that choice is limiting.
Related question: Have you practiced any assisted rescues? You’re on the water, with others (whether you’re paddling with them or just come across them). They might not have the overabundance of “common sense” you feel you have. Can you help them if needed?
If you haven’t already - at least read Lull’s book. He’s very clear on how - and even more importantly why.
The biggest mistake is…
...answering these stupid trolls from Pahsimeroi. I suspect that his instructors told him that learning to roll was a waste of time simply to get rid of him.
hallelujah!!!
can I get an Amen!!!
Amen
I actually found the thread enjoyable, however, I am genetically programmed to respond to this type of exclamation.
Lou Alleluia
And not everybody has to
That's the magic phrase. You got it. This is a wide open sport/activity for just about anyone but the most feeble minded or physically impaired. (Is there anyone on this thread who cannot master a re-mount in the conditions they choose to paddle in?)
It is not a technically demanding activity regardless of what you are paddling. It is a forgiving sport with a wide margin for error when common sense is used. Driving a motorcycle or even a car is much more risky. And while it is gratifying to talk amongst each other about every little nuance of advancement in skills, let's be careful while patting each other on the back not to chase off newbies with morose warnings about steep learning curves and the dire effects of not learning every skill there is.
for crying out loud,
how many times do you have to “practice” climbing back into your kayak so that you won’t forget how? Half a dozen times ought to be enough for good.
As a trusty Shellback, I hereby…
… beseech the mighty Lord of the Deep - Neptunus Rex - to visit upon this fool a circumstance worthy of testing his vast reserves of common sense! L
Gee, I guess I should have just done those first couple rolls and left it at that!
“…won’t forget how?” What a crock! It ain’t about memory - it’s about proficiency, redundancy, and reliability. Being able to do these things automatically - and in less than ideal circumstances (when else would you need them?).
There is no substitute for practice, and no good reason not to do it or to have several options. Without these - you’re only deluding yourself and taking unnecessary risks (no matter how small you perceive them to be).
You are not alone. I’m sure there are many who have only done a couple exits and recoveries and feel they’re good to go too. The difference is they don’t see that as something to publicly defend.
You have to be 100% trolling at this point. No one in their right mind could possibly be serious about the point you made. Oops! Sorry! I accidentally confused you with someone with the ability to reason.
As someone who
has safety skills that keep me alive in my occupation at times, I can say there is no such thing as practicing them too much, only not practicing them enough. Whether it’s making sure I’m proficient at doffing my Scott Pack and passing it through small spaces for Confined Space Entries, or practicing buddy breathing for recreational scuba diving, or roling my SOT with thigh straps even though I don’t really have to. I never think of it as a waste of time. I like knowing I can roll a Yak Board, which in some ways is tougher than rolling a sea kayak, because it’s wider and meant to be more stable. Plus, it keeps me ready to do it for my all too infrequent trips to Victoria BC. Practice often. It’s useful and fun.
It isn’t about “remembering how”
You polliwog! It's about being able to do it INSTINCTIVELY without having to think through it. If you ever find yourself in a life-threatening situation, you will be AMAZED at how your thinking mind freezes and your brain shifts into instinctive reaction mode. It is vital that you have self rescue information stored at that more basic level. This can only be accomplished by intensive repetition and regular practice.
Observe how the military trains their people to perform under life-threatening pressure. Constant repetition! Drills Drills Drills! Know your weapon so well that you can disassemble/reassemble it blindfolded.
They know what they're doing.
Not thst I agree with Jim on other thing
but your guys are making this “praticing to save your life” sound like WORK!
And you’re trying to convince people to do it on their limited spare time? Every way I look at it, it doesn’t sound like FUN. And it doesn’t sound like the kind of thing 99% of the people would be willing to spend the time to do it regularly. There’s bills to pay, lawns to mow, leaves to rake… Praticing climbing back into the kayak and pumping out is about as fun as fixing a leaky drain!
No wonder there’s so much resistance to learning ANY kind of safety drills. It sounds boring, it’s just work, not play. We work all week so we come to the weekend. Do I want to be doing some more boring “work” instead of having fun just paddling? It maybe a neccessary evil. But then, maybe I should take up rock climbing instead. At least there, the “pratice” are the sport itself. Sounds a lot more fun.
I confess I only pratice rolling purposely. THAT, is fun. And for the few occasion I got so tired that I can’t roll up any more, I ended up having to “pratice” a re-entry anyway. But no, I can’t motivate myself into doing re-entry “pratice”. There’s only so much one can manage to do in the limited time we call “ours”. By god I’ll use it to have fun, even if it means I may die from it due to the lack of those boring “pratices”!
Rant over.
That 99% of the people shouldn’t kayak
How’s that for a firebomb? L
“Practicing climbing back into the kayak and pumping out is about as fun as fixing a leaky drain!”
Yeah, no argument there, but that’s a great reason to learn how to roll. It was a BIG part of my motivation. I knew after my first paddle float rescue (super easy as it was) that there had to be a better way.
Some of it can seem like work - but I’ll take playing around in the water over just about any other work I can think of! Play’s the way!
By the time you can and do roll regularly - and do them for fun - you’re probably proficient enough at other reentries to go to doing them only infrequently.
I have a very reliable roll now - and on both sides - but consider myself to have a LONG way to go as far as skills go. My roll is not combat tested, I have not done a lot of assisted rescues, etc.
I find it fun always knowing there’s something more to try. Always a beginner, exploring through play.
Practice
I practice paddle float re-entries only occationally now. But, there is no pumping using the method I favor. I lift the bow of the boat up and let the cockpit drain prior to righting the boat. This is easy and eliminates the need to use a pump.
I practice a wet re-entry and roll more often than a paddle float re-entry. I am playing with doing a very deep high brace following the roll to empty some of the water from the cockpit so there is less to pump. I also carry a small bailer which is easier to handle one handed for me.
As with most responding here I work more often on prefecting my combat roll.
Happy Paddling,
Mark
Can we please kill this thread?
I went out yesterday afternoon and did about 25 rolls. the blade skimming across the water, me being in position and executing a hip snap and marginal pressure on the blade and keeping my head down all worked particularly well yesterday…There is a pleasure in executing something well and it becomes fun.
The first time you got on skates or a bicycle was not fun…you were extremely cautious and worried more about faling down and hurting yourself and keeping your balance than becoming proficient.
My first times attempting to roll were not fun and are documented here somewheres. But doing wet exits and paddle float re-entries while not unpleasant in themselves, necessitiated spending many minutes pumping water out of a cockpit that I really detested doing…so for me, the main motivations for learning to roll were as follows:
- I wouldn’t have to pump much out of the boat and would not have to leave the boat if I capsized.
- I quit worrying so much about my balance and let my “monkey brain” as lallelulia speaks so fondly of, worry about my balance in the boat and as such, have been able to lean over much farther executing tighter turns and corrections without the innate fear of capsizing and having to spend 10 minutes pumping out a boat.(did I mention I really hate that?)
- I have accepted unequivocably that this is a wet sport and chances are that sometime you will get wet…so I don’t worry about getting in the water anymore…(it is amazing how many people feel that they don’t want to get wet but still want to kayak or canoe)
- Yes it does impress the girls and garners interest from the lifeguards at the beach.
There is a confidence level that is achieved when you are able to roll. I think it is coupled with a more innate acceptance of the risks involved in kayaking as it does accustom you to being under the water in an environment we are not meant to survive in. Being able to somewhat control that environment by using technique and equipment reduces panic levels and certainly increases your chances for survival.
rolling is fun! wet exits and re-entries are fun. pumping out water sucks.
Now can this thread die please? I am quite sure Pash and crowd are very proud of their 100+ thread.
A recent experience
As some of you may recall, I've been focusing on getting a roll for some time now. A few weeks ago, I had to wet exit and do a paddle float re-entry to get back in (well, I didn't have to, but it was practice) and it seemed much harder than the last time I tried it (which was a while ago). I don't know if it was the Crossfire I was using in pool class, or the fact that I had no PFD on in the pool, but it taught me that if I haven't practiced something recently, I shouldn't think it will be easy to do it.
Lou
Abso-friggin-luely!!!
Limited time and enegy is what I am talking about. I devote (and I mean DEVOTE) a half a dozen hours every weekend to kayaking. I paddle my ass off non stop then pack up and go home to all those things abc mentioned.