Gear obsession
Most women (but not all) are a lot less anal about boats and paddles like men. I remember going to a talk by Dana Chladek, past olympics silver medalist, white water. At the conclusion of the slide talk all the guys wanted to know about what boat, what paddle, paddle length on and on. She said that most of the time she didn’t know what she was paddling and just used whatever they gave her that day. Same with the paddle. It’s was quite refreshing.
Its All About volume
When you get down to the fundamentals of boat performance/design isn’t it all about the amount of and distribution of the boat’s volume. And of course we are largely talking about what is underwater as opposed to all those neat features which are visible to paddlers which may distract and mislead.
Not uncommon Jay
I recall a get together with a bunch of people, some of which were paddlers and two were Olympian paddlers. The two were accosted by well meaning paddlers with all sorts of questions about rolling and which roll etc. The two Olympic paddlers didn’t even know the various roll “names” and simply said “we just roll up from whatever position we’re in” “what’s a c to c?” True story.
rocker
– Last Updated: Feb-04-10 12:24 PM EST –
This is what I wrote in my post above:
"while the kayaks with little rocker were nosediving and also getting hung up on the beach."
the key word in there is rocker.. not pointed end.. I didn't bring up the pointed ends and only said they help with transporting..
I don't care if it has a pointed end as long as it doesn't nose dive or plow a wake when paddling forward.. of course that has to do with volume as well..
my kayak does have a pointed front.. while the kayak with little rocker has a blunt nose and still nose dived in waves over 3'..
IMO, Greenland style kayaks with rocker and pointed ends are the some of the best all around coastal kayaks and not just artistic or look good.
The major difference between a greenland and Epic would be the rudder.. I don't need or want a rudder for the kind of paddling I do at this time..
The better the paddler…
the less the gear matters.
I’ve been in many trainings during which paddlers have to get in a boat other than their own. It is good experience to use unfamiliar boats and paddles. It increases a paddler’s sense of self in that it confirms that it is about the paddler not the gear.
We sometimes do it just for the fun of it. My favorite is changing boats at sea…
Ultimately, it’s not even about the…
…paddler. 
Melissa
Barton video
"The major difference between a greenland and Epic would be the rudder… "
Not according to Barton.
http://www.epickayaks.com/news/news/epic-kayaks–why-a-plumb-bow
Watch the videos.
why
– Last Updated: Feb-05-10 5:30 PM EST –
would you assume I haven't seen those videos?
They and you post illustrate nothing of substance.
If you have something to contribute feel free to do so without clinging onto me.
refutation
I assumed you had not seen the videos because they seem to me to clearly refute the statement of yours that I quoted.
that video
– Last Updated: Feb-06-10 5:47 AM EST –
has been refuted before.. it was also posted at the start of this sub topic..
Do you assume that sea kayaks would have any problem at all paddling though that little chop?
I assume that's what you would base your purchase on, but not me.
It also illustrates nothing about the advantages or disadvantages of a rudder, so I don't see your point.
agree
nothing wrong with “Artsy” and function
Best Wishes
Roy
Artsy and slightly reduced function
– Last Updated: Feb-06-10 1:05 PM EST –
will OUTSELL ugly and superior function every day :)
Sea Kayakers are a nostalgic crowd for the most part and as such have traditional taste. Any designer has to keep that in mind.
Racers, WW, and surf boaters have more of a pure performance focus and will paddle anything that works better regardless of aesthetic.
It's hard even to discuss stuff like this in a fun way with a very trad. thinker, cuz they just end up arguing for what is, rather than what "could be".
Why do we see the same sea kayaks designed over and over and over again?????
'cause
"Why do we see the same sea kayaks designed over and over and over again???"
'cause race boats are ugly???
If you look back at historical Inuit and Aleut designs there is a wide variety of shapes and sizes. Some are aesthetically pleasing, maybe some less so. As I see it, the modern sea kayak designs we see over and over again are basically tweaks of designs from one Greenlandic region.
For those that seek more information check out some of Harvey Golden’s replicas:
http://www.traditionalkayaks.com/Kayakreplicas/KayakReplicas.html
Best,
~wetzool
good question
"Why do we see the same sea kayaks designed over and over and over again???"
I think it’s the best all around coastal kayak for the paddling I do. Also it’s the choice of kayak instructors world wide.
Some paddle for fitness or racing and want that extra .5 mph on their Garmin GPS… or others paddle hundreds or thousands of miles and want a rudder.
International conspiracy theory? Perhaps not.
Agree wetzool about history
Ancient craft design had a lot to do with the materials available. What would the kayaks have looked like if the ancient folk had aluminum tubing or even conposite technology??? If you think that’s a stupid question it’s almost a direct quote from George Dyson whom I chatted with at length some years ago.
If what you have is skin and wooden frames it’s not too hard to figure out how the vessel will look.
Now, undoubtedly someone is going to conclude that I dislike traditional designs or dismiss their performance. Not the case at all. That would be as didingenuous as dismissing modern developments in hull shapeds etc.
Your
making the assumption, that You can’t have both artsy and function.
like saying a graphic on the hull or a small line all of a sudden destroys the function…or that a kayak absolutely NEEDS a plumb bow just to be effecient or effective for the job at hand.(this would depend on the job at hand)
You’ve stated that You believe a clipper bow does nothing but look nice…but…what’s wrong with looking nice?
I’m not talking about all the rec kayaks out there.
but given two hulls that work equally as well for the purpose they were purchased for. I would rather have the one I enjoy the look of.(If one works better than the other for the intended purpose it was purchased for …then that changes things…but…We all paddle DIFFERANT Strokes)
(not all designers agree and neither do a lot of paddlers)
Best Wishes
Roy
If your refering to me
I didn’t say anything of the sort. Simply said that the atrsy side is a very important factor to most sea kayak purchasers. Also, that some attribute things to artsy features innaccurately.
I’ve designed a few very successful models that are aesthetically pleasing yet perform the way I intended. You can have both! Hell, Ferrari’s look great too.
"what’s wrong with looking nice"
Nothing. But I find it odd that so many of you paddle both canoes and sea kayaks and think that a sea kayak that has a bow and stern that resembles a canoe is ugly. Makes no sense to me.
Sorry Salty
– Last Updated: Feb-06-10 8:49 PM EST –
misunderstood a post. Read something into it that wasn't said. I agree with what You've just said.
Best Wishes
Roy
have both art and function
I think both a Nordkapp LV and an Epic 18X are pretty sharp looking boats. Though I have to admit I think the Nordlow is prettier. They are both boats with strong paddling characteristics that reward competent paddlers. I’d love to intersect an Epic 18 paddler who would like to swap boats for a day so I could play in one…