Most folks are much nicer face to face
than they are here or almost anywhere else on the net. There are about 400 people in my paddling club, I have learned from about 30 of them and have great respect for them especially the generous folks who make the club and its activities work. I have developed two very close friendships with members (out of about 10 very close friends) and have friendships with as many as will have me (a self-selecting group 
). Be honest, be yourself, donāt discuss politics unless you have to, and youāll find the folks who match you.
Remember you are the captain of you own boat at all times!
"missing something"
No, you didnāt miss anything. Rather, you assume something that wasnāt there.
I was simple pointing out if the condition is bad enough to capsize a SINK repeatedly (neccessitating more than a single re-entry, which just about anyone could do), then it could capsize a SOT many times too. Then, the issue become less about re-entry in worse than mild condition, but more about getting back to shore from 2 mile out in rapidly deteriarating weatherā¦
While many SINK owners (especially those on this board) sounded near paranoid about safety, many SOT owner are oblivion of dangers OTHER than capsizes. Thereāre many other factors, besides getting back into the boat, that could become problem when one is 2 mile out on the Great Lakes in the middle of winter when no other boats are out there!
Nothing to argue with there
Youāre right, I was reading in the assumption that the SINK would handle the conditions betterā¦which is probably true more often than not, depending on which boats youāre comparing, but not true for all boats or all paddlers.
DITTO
I can testify that several of these people with vitrolic posts are actually really nice people in person.
Where does this statement come from?
"They say ā¦ āIf there are not three ā¦ the trip shall not beā
Says who?
Is this really a wee little axiom used in touring instruction?
Just curious.
Iāve never heard that before.
"Down To The Sea In Threes"
I understand that is an old british saying.
While I sometimes do short ocean trips by myself, I think it is a good idea, no matter what type of boat.
well I think there are inconsistancies
In the advice given here.
Basically people here are always giving dire warnings about hypothermia and drowning ā¦ mostly from not being able to get back in a SINK after a wet exit - because of ānot enough skill -equipment -training -practice - or helpā ā¦
ā¦ and now towards the end of the thread ā¦ people are soft pedaling that difficulty ā¦
I bet the percentage of (ALL) non SOT kayak owning kayakers ā¦ who can roll consistantly in all conditions - is pretty small.
ā¦ and getting back in many non SOT boats in waves alone ā¦ or with minimal help ā¦ is often not very easy.
Thats alright ā¦ better that 1000 people get warnings ā¦ than to have one die ā¦ (I think)
ā¦ and a few people here have died in the last 2.5 years ā¦ right?
ā¦ But I also say ā¦ for the vast majority of people who will paddle kayaks in any year ā¦ as far as safety ā¦ most SHOULD be in SOTs ā¦ because they need less equipment and training and practice to maintain that level of safety.
ā¦ and they are likely to NOT ā¦ take those āequipment, training and safetyā precautions.
ā¦ they are people who mostly just want to have fun.
ā¦ and if they UNDERSTOOD (and had it explained) the requirements and differences of the 2 styles of boats ā¦ I bet a BIG majorityād choose SOTS
and ā¦ the only admonitions to me as a SOT pilot for safety ā¦ are ā¦ āwhat if you donāt have the proper clothing ā¦ or the boat slips away?ā
Those two are so easily solvable ā¦ as to prove my point - as far as I am concerned.
āif there are not 3 - the trip shall not beā ? ā¦ dunno ā¦ but I have read it here several times.
ā¦ and it would have put a stop to about 80% of all kayak time for me.
oh and ātimeā ā¦ I stated it wrong ā¦ my math was supposed to be ā¦ > 3trips per week/3 hours per trip/for 6 months/year ā¦ equals 260 hours x 2 years = 500 + in the last 2 years ā¦ and thats still conservative ā¦ and I bet thats still more then a big majority of even a board like this.
that still doesnāt make me any kind of authority.
ā¦ but I didnāt just get wet last week.
ā¦ nobody should be offended ā¦ 
rollinā rollinā rollinā ā¦ keep them dogies rollinā
Just one inconsistency
Let me make this so simple even you should get it:
--------------------
Anyone who relies on the type of kayak they paddle to keep them safe should not be on the water in the first place.
--------------------
Even though you are right that most SINKers canāt roll, and very few can roll reliably in a wide range of conditions - you completely missed the points offered about rolling and the multitude of other SINK rescues that require little training. If youāre unable to assimilate useful info - thatās your problem
Letās go back to SOTs (since thatās your claimed area of knowledge). Shortly after getting my SOT I went to the worst spot I could find and remounted repeatedly. Breaking waves, large boat wakes, reflected clapotis from a jetty, 20 kt wind. I learned a lot. Mostly that an SOT has limits.
How many practice with their SOTs like this and find them? Probably about the same percentage as SINK paddlers that learn how to roll - maybe less (at least SINK paddlers think about it!). Most SOTs arenāt even properly/safely rigged. I added perimeter lines to mine after that first session. How many do, or even know why they might be a good idea?
No one here has a problem with SOTs. It aināt the boat thatās the problem Barge. Itās folks like you who spread narrow minded BS that contributes to people not thinking they need to learn anything to be safe paddlers - and can just get SOTs instead.
Been There, And Done That?
To my knowledge, there are only about half a dozen boaters on this board that have been hit hard enough to get blasted off a SOT, or ripped out of a SINK on the ocean, and managed an unassited self recovery.
None of them really took a āSideā in this agrument.
All of them agree on one thing. Dress for emersion. I have been there and done that in 50 degree water, and I know from personal exprience that hypothemia was my biggest fear.
And they all agree on another thing. No matter what boat you use, practice your safety skills. I can promise you that if it is rough enough to knock you off an SOT, re-entry is NOT a given.
Back to the original question
"I am interested to hear if people like one vs. the other, especially when it comes to the cooler weather."
I have 2 SINKS and 1 SOT. I have paddled the SOT in late winter, using a drysuit. Yes, itās workable, but since my particular SOT offers a VERY WET ride in even the tiniest wind waves, I prefer the SINK for the colder conditions. Nothing like sitting in a pool of icy water for a couple of hours to chill you thoroughly, even in a drysuit. Warm air temperatures only do so much.
Now, in hot summer weather, the SOT is more comfortable for me. Just gotta put sunblock on the legs as well as arms and face.
You might eventually end up with one of each, to best enjoy the seasons.
You bet WHAT?
>I betā¦
ā¦ and getting back in many non SOT boats in waves alone ā¦ or with minimal help ā¦ is often not very easy.
<
What do you want to bet???
Only 2 weeks ago, I watch a guy ājumpā right back into his boat cowboy style, no paddle float, no āhelpā (āminimumā or otherwise), no nothing! It took about 10 seconds.
Now the fact thereās such a move called ācowboyā rescue that some folks found easy enough they succeed in their first try, is probably beyond your limited knowledge.
When I first took my girl friend kayaking, it took her all of 2 tries, within less than 5 min. before she was successful in getting back into the boat (SINK).
Yes, some of us avocate practice and more pratice under more and more severe conditions because thatās where we want to paddle. If you see that as a ājustificationā for recommending SOT to people who intend to skip safe boating pratices, itās simply a disaster waiting to happen.
Is this discussion for real?
I just dropped in on this discussion and am amazed at the crap Iām reading.
Look, I donāt care what anybody paddles. I belong to a kayak fishing club in Ft.Lauderdale, FL. Why does everybody feel they have to defend the kayak they paddle? If you paddle anything youāve discovered a recreation that is exquisite in so many ways that we all should feel sorry for the landlubbers whoāve missed the experience.
THAT BEING SAID, does anyone really believe that SOTs are as seaworthy as SINKs? I donāt care how you rescue yourself, the bottom line is not having to be rescued. Ever seen a whitewater SOT? Or a long-distance sea-SOT? You get caught in nasty 4ā to 6ā seas in an ocean storm and YOU want to be in a SOT? I mean, why would anyone even have to defend that statement?
Barge, whoever you are, you boggle my mind! I donāt care what you want to paddle but to argue that a SOT is as stable and seaworthy as a SINK isnāt worth discussion.
Itās not a matter of which is the best craft. Both craft are different and both have their advantages. Belonging to a kayak fishing club I have to admit that SOTs are the best fishing platforms with their easy access to equipment and initial stability for fishing. Iāve seen fishermen stand in their SOTs to flyfish. On the otherhand Iāve seen SOTs topple easily in sudden rough storm-blown winds when my SINK wasnāt even threatened.
I do a lot of long expeditions to the outer Gulf islands and have been caught in bad weather with my SINK. No SOT would have been able to stay upright in that weather. And, no, there werenāt three of meājust one. Where did you hear that stupid āthreeā statement? Iāve never heard anything so silly. Did you make it up for this thread?
Arenāt SOTs and SINKs on the same side? Donāt we have worse enemies like jet skiās, power boats and oil slicks to fight against?
Iām amazed. I really am.
BTW, Greyak, I hoped to meet you at Frankās revival of the Paddlefest but Jeanne stopped that. Next time, as I am a fellow QC 700 paddler.
hey
"long-distance sea-SOT" Try the tarpon 160ā¦ A great long distance touring SOT, mater of fact i routienly do 30+ mile DAY trips with it, no problems. and yes it is very sea worthy. and yes i do agree that sinks and SOT are on the same side, thats why i also own two QCC 700ās and a Canoe. That said. there is NOTHING that i wouldnt do in my 700s that i wouldnt do on my T-160, how ever some things are easyer in the 160 like hoping on or off if the water is shallow, or clearing branches ect ect. The 700s are are just faster, matter of fact if sombody would make a fast SEA sot i wouldnt need the 700s. i am not talking skis, I dont want something that has to be moving to be stable. I like skis, thsy just dont tour very well. atleast not the ones I have tried. I do love touring in my 700s but its nice having a 4x4 SOT to just beat the heck out of and go anyplace do anything with.
That makes 4
Q700s in the Lauderdale/Miami area I know of! We will cross paths soon. One of Frankās get togethers, the Kayak Challenge, B&B, or just a random crossingā¦
Horsefeathers
If youāre tired of reading crap, donāt add more to the thread. You like your SINK in rough waterāgreat. But the idea that no SOT can handle 4-6ā seas is pure BS. Have you tried? I donāt know just where the limit on the Scupper is, but itās a whole lot higher than that.
pure crap
I own both and prefer the SINK. I do not paddle far from shore, however, I donāt care if you can roll like an eskimo, most touring SOTās would be safer than just about any SINK. We have been through this a few times and there is no need to list all the reasonsā¦thats been done above. Just putting my vote in.
Vote?
>Just putting my vote in<
Voting, Floridian.
Enough said.
The blasted off bit
is where a SINK starts looking attractive, or at least a SOT that rolls easily. But thatās mostly a surf thing. I donāt know how much wind it takes to generate that kind of hit offshore, but whatever it is I donāt think I want to be out in it.
Name some "Touring SOTs"
Real, practical touring SOTs. Something that can go long distances, handle offshore conditions, and carry gear. Should be 16ā or more.
Might have been a good point Jim, but there really arenāt equivalent SOTs to compare to the sea/touring SINKs.
I agree with Swedge that the Tarpon 160 counts in this regard (with a paddler willing to push hard for hours on end) - as I have done 30 mile days - mostly ocean - on one myself. (T160 is the only real Tarpon - other āTarponsā are too short and wallow in waves, and are too slow).
Others? Maybe the Cobra Expedition - but doesnāt handle conditions well enough and is too wet for me. Maybe Heritage Expedition too, but never paddled one. Looking at the design - and having been on other Heritage boats - I doubt it has the open water confidence the T160 has. Itās daddy, the Shearwater, perhaps finest of the touring SOTs ever made, is no ocean boat IMHO. Not even remotely close to a good touring SINK in wind and waves.
Scupper Pro? Certainly ocean capable, but a little slow for serious touring. Scupper fans will likely disagree, but how many have done 20-30 mile day paddles on Scuppers? Better ocean boat than just about any other SOT, but I donāt see it as a true touring boat.
What else?
There have been extensive threads on the SOT board about the lack of touring/sea SOTs. Personally, I think that below a certain beam SOTs loose their āadvantagesā and become hard to manage for ātouringā. Not until you get to more extreme designs like skis do they make sense again (yes, I know there are ātouring skisā, but while nice for fast day paddles they are not as stable in conditions as a SINK. While more stable than race skis, they still favor a keep moving paddling style).
A bit of topic drift
ā Last Updated: Sep-29-04 5:59 PM EST ā
I agree that good touring SOTs are lacking and that the Scupper is slow--I've bemoaned both problems myself--but I seriously doubt that most paddlers are routinely doing 20 to 30 miles at a pop. There's an awful lot of just "messing about in boats," maybe paddling anywhere from a mile or two up to maybe 10 or so, where something like the Scupper works very well. It's not going to be the equal of a good SINK in the hands of a highly skilled paddler, but most folks are going to be limited more by their own skills than by their choice of boat. And it's enough of a "real touring boat" that people do, in fact, tour with it in demanding conditions. I don't think your QCC would survive the landings on some of the neighbor island trips our local club takes in Scuppers.