GET A CANOE and stay away from
these kayaking fanatics!
Kayaking fanatics???
You ain’t seen nothing yet—just ask for opinions about whether someone should buy a QCC or a British boat.
The answer is simple
– Last Updated: Sep-23-04 11:36 PM EST –
Ask Ebanista-he just graduated from a QCC to a Pintail, and from a rudder to a skeg as well
Must have been…
– Last Updated: Sep-24-04 12:31 AM EST –
a Q400! Sometimes I forget the short/fat/deep ones are out there - and that sometimes that's what people mean when they say "QCC".
Pintail's definitely an upgrade from a Q400, but not a Q700.
I have both. Very different - both are great (and both of mine have skegs).
LOL-new I would hear from ya ; )
Lake Michigan in February
Maybe this was before global warming really kicked in but when I lived in Michigan I viisted the shore a few times in February and it was nothing but solid ice and ice flows… a sit on top ski-doo might be what you are looking for …
Tribalance
OK … How about one of these and you can have your cake and eat it to. If you get thrown out you can get in or get back on top … what ever you want. Just don’t try and take it down any rapids or you’ll soon have no outriggers! Bob
http://www.tribalance.com/
NO NO NO! WRONG DISCUSSION! BELONGS
on the SPONSON thread!
Bad boy, BAD boy!
Go sit in the corner. Better yet, start your OWN thread, and only THEN may you
Paddle On!
-Fank in Miami
OK boys
then … Why don’t you “elitist expert SINK sea kayakers”
(note … thats not the title of this forum)
… give me an honest estimate of the total quantity of hours of “pool class kayak training” YOU would think adequate before a new SINK paddler is qualified to go 2 miles out onto the Great Lakes in say … light 2 foot wave conditions ?
(remember the water is always fairly cold)
by himself or with maybe one other person ?
(never - is one answer - correct ?)
- how many hours of classses?
- over how many days?
- and the likely cost of those classes?
- and the quantity of hours of self supervised practice this new paddler might be required to perfect those skills enough.
- how many books should he buy/read?
- hours reading them?
- how many videos should he buy/view?
- hours viewing them
- Cost of those boooks and videos?
This would all be … to achive the equivalent -non drowning-non hypothermic - safety level of a typical SOT … say a 16’ Tarpon … say paddling alone.
… and keep this in mind … not every kayaker … in fact I’d say about 90% of all kayak purchasers in any one year … do NOT … want to join the “elite expert SINK sea kayak club” … or would not … if they knew what it entails from YOUR perspectives … (to be safe)
So … newbie questions here … should be answered in THAT way … not just from your “elite expert sea kayaker” point of view.
i e … THEIR safety … not YOURS
and by the way … this was certainly a whack at the hornets nest on purpose …
Two Aussies walk into a bar …
- joo see the Yank in the weird boat ?
OK
– Last Updated: Sep-24-04 12:59 PM EST –
2 miles offshore, Lake Superior, long 2 foot swells with, what, a 5-10 knot wind? Sounds like reasonably easy conditions for a paddle-float reentry or a T-rescue and reentry. Those are skills that can be learned by a reasonably coordinated person in an afternoon in sheltered water. I learned them my first day on the water in a kayak.
Rolling take longer to learn, but it's hardly the ordeal you make it out to be. You get a little instruction, you practice for a few minutes each time you go out, and you and your friends help each other when you go out paddling together. Lots of folks here seem to think that learning new skills is fun.
What happens if the SOT paddler lets go of his boat? Staying in the boat and rolling up seems a whole lot safer.
Personally, I think anyone who goes 2 miles or more offshore on the big lakes in any kind of craft -- paddle, sail, motor, or whatever -- ought to know what the hell they're doing. I can't think of any craft that is truly safe for a complete novice. Judgement takes a lot longer to learn than any physical skill.
I've paddled rec, whitewater, and sea kayaks, SOTs and canoes, rowed sliding- and fixed-seat boats, sailed everything from a sailboard to a 33' keelboat, and driven powerboats. None were any safer than the person at the helm.
If you think that similar precautions
do not need to be taken with SOTs as with SinKs, meaning appropriate dress for water temps, ability to get back on the kayak and stay on it and the judgement to know when to stay on shore, then you are a schmuck and a fool.
Either/Or - & my limited experiences
– Last Updated: Sep-24-04 4:44 PM EST –
Either Barge is REALLY (as in ridiculously) overestimating the difficulties of learning basic paddling skills, or he just know his own limitations! *L*
But to try to be objective, contribute something, and get off the inflammatory stuff, I'll add some more info and maybe help throw a blanket over this fire.
First, In Barge's example, the conditions are too mild to be much of an issue in SOT or SINK choice (and which SOT or which SINK matters a lot!). In anything more challenging - it really all depends on the paddler. As for the water temps - both need same protection as already mentioned.
As for the specific list, I can only give my answers based on my experiences regarding learning basic SINK skills - but (I'll humor you) here they are:
* how many hours of classes?*
Zero
* over how many days?*
Zero
* and the likely cost of those classes?*
Zero
* and the quantity of hours of self supervised practice this new paddler might be required to perfect those skills enough.*
What is "self supervised practice"? Practice is an ongoing process. No required amount - no completion point where it ends. It can be done alone and with others. "Skills" is too big a topic. You need to be more specific. No one knows it all. The basics are not hard and don't take a lot of time or effort. My basic Paddle float recuse was workable first try. A few more tuned it up and made it faster to do. A few more and I can get in with no float, a couple different ways. Working on other rescues with people is fun. Learning to roll is not required in SINK - but highly recommended as it is fun too - and opens up new levels of skills that make paddling even more fun. THAT is why good SINK paddlers (which I someday hope to become) may seem to you to be pushing the roll. They just know what it can do and hate to see other people miss out.
***A paddler that can roll is much less likely to capsize in the first place than one that can't.***
***Once learned, a roll is easer to do than paddle float, cowboy, or even assisted rescues. It is no harder to do than a scramble on to a SOT, and takes similar or less energy and certainly less time. Less risk of losing boat/paddle too. You always have several other backup options should a you blow a roll (usually, another couple roll atempts on same breath, or gettting a breath and then making more attempts! Yes, there are ways get up for a breath fairly easily while still in the kayak. If all that fails, then you can go to all the other recovery options)
* how many books should he buy/read?*
As many as interests him (Duh!). I have no books, but have skimmed/read several at the bookstores.
* hours reading them?*
Well - that depends on how slow you are. I read pretty fast. I can get through most of the info in a basic sea kayaking book over a cup of coffee in the bookstore café.
* how many videos should he buy/view?
Again - whatever is of interest. I have a basic paddling type tape, a forward stroke tape, a more entertainment type sea kayaking tape (no instruction), and two rolling tapes. All have been helpful and enjoyable to watch. I have just ordered a third rolling tape that has many different rolls - just because it interests me.
* hours viewing them
The good ones are fun to watch and worth repeating. This is a bonus, not a cost.
* Cost of those books and videos?
Less than my PFD.
Look Barge, if you're not interested in learning more about paddling, that's your business. Got better things to do with your time? Fine. If all you're willing to do is sit on the boat and paddle though, you might want consider a different hobby that interests you more.
To give you one learning curve story, here's the deal for me: I went from a 28" beam plastic SOT (which I'd only had a year)to a 21" beam fast SINK adn Greenland paddle . It was a big jump - and maybe not the most rational progression for some - but worked fine for me.
I took it pretty easy at first and stuck to sheltered waters. Practiced a wet exits and paddle float recuse first time out in it. No big deal. Third paddle in it I pushed things a bit and went on the ocean. After 17 miles I got fatigued/over heated and capsized (Ahhh! actualy felt good! My only unintentional capsize so far). Guess what? Paddle float rescue worked pretty easy in waves too.
Skip to a little over a year later (now) and while I still have far more I want to learn than I know, I am much more confident in chop/waves/wakes and have just recently hit my first rolls (all video/self taught). I only tried rolling on maybe 4 occasions - and none of them very long or demanding sessions. A few casual tries each time, and these were each a few months apart. Mostly I just paddle.
NOTE: I do not suggest that everyone should learn that way I am, which is on my own with no lessons. Works for me - but at some point I may take some instruction. I would certainly recommend others do so. Monkey see monkey do is more effective. It shortens your learning curve and is worth the money.
Easy, and hard
>2 miles out onto the Great Lakes in say … light 2 foot wave conditions<
2 foot wave?
That’s peice of cake. About 1/2 hour of paddle-float re-entry pratice. Add another 1/2 hour for a T-rescue for the paddling buddy.
2 miles out???
Well, how long does it take to paddle the 2 miles back to shore on a SOT, and the wind is off-shore? How fast does the weather change in Lake Superior? What if the wave got up to 4 foot? How likely is the SOT to tip over in that wave and how many times a “typical paddler” can scramble back on before getting too weak???
Judgement trumps skill in many situations. And knowledge, especially knowledge of one’s own limitation, could be what keeps a SINK paddler safe on shore while the SOT paddler goes blindly into harms way.
Right, and wrong
I hate to further prolong this thread, but what makes you assume that a SOT is likelier to go over than a SINK in comparable conditions? And why are you assuming that the SOT driver is just a moron rather than someone who’s been spending the time that he didn’t spend practicing rescues on learning how to stay upright in more difficult water? There’s a lot of difference between water in which you have some chance of capsizing occasionally (and thus needing to be absolutely sure you can recover in those conditions) and water in which you’re going to capsize every third stroke.
sot
I have a sot ocean kayak and I love it. I read all these messages and I have to tell you I am in shock over the controversy. I am fairly new this is only my second season and I have done rivers, oceans, bays with my kayak and was looking into joining a group so there would be more people to kayak with and to learn. But after reading all these nasty messages and the attitudes make me want to stay just where I am, enjoying my paddling. I don’t know whether sot is better than a sink or if I can roll or not if I had a sink.
To me being out on the water, enjoying myself with the skill that I have is what is in important. And I think that is what is important to you, know what your skill level is, to stay warm and enjoy yourself with whatever you get.
Joining a group can be a good thing
Depends on the group dynamics and your personality. There really is no controversy, just peaople trying to make it that way. Enjoy your paddling. Be safe.
Prolonging the waste even further!!!
>I hate to further prolong this thread, but what makes you assume that a SOT is likelier to go over than a SINK in comparable conditions? <
Where did you get from my post that I “assume” a SOT is “likelier” (i.e. more likely) to go over than a SINK?
It was the line about
"how likely is the SOT to go over in that four foot wave." Am I missing something?