maybe neither of us mentioned a name. I see below that you figured out who Jim was. I was the female type who asked you if you'd lost a boat when you were paddling back to the beach from the demo. Funny considering one of the newer threads here, you cracked that you may not be able to roll a Pungo any more. I'd had been looking for you earlier but it was when you were at the demo.
Y'r right - I should have mentioned my name. Chalk it up to end-of-day-need-food state.
BTW, we hauled all of the long boats to a local pond on Saturday, for the folks you had talked with at Saratoga to try out. We left then with a list of other boats to try, top of the list for a shorter boat was the Alchemy as long as they understand it isn't a go-straight-faster boat (for that a composite Eliza for her). A local dealer will be getting two Alchemys in, hopefully one in each size. Here's a pic of our back yard with boats loaded - http://outdoors.webshots.com/photo/2887208710048488250HmCoTL
Perhaps best for coastal play but reviews indicate it is sooooo slow for flat water. I just got this email from a Connecticut acquaintance on the 16, just moments ago.
"but a friend bought a Chatham 16 in C/K and hates it as they cannot keep up to the group. I had seen a chart on one of the boards somewhere showing a comparison of boat speed and noticed the Chatham was just about at the bottom of it. a Slow P-I-G"
He goes on to say that most of his coastal friends would choose a Tempest 165 composite over the Chatham series. yeah Steve!
"Sounds like you have the "I wants", martin. With all due respect, I'm with your wife on this one." - CD1
CD1, I agree that whether boats, cars, golf clubs, or homes, it is easy to get caught up in the cycle of material wants versus needs. Many of those I paddle with have 4,5,6 or more boats. They paddle many different types of water and conditions though and there are distinct uses of each.
Some of my paddling friends suggest having a pure playful boat as a second boat, like a Zephyr 155. Once again, do I need one? Perhaps not.
Until more than wetzool… My belief is one doesn’t have to worry about having too many boats until one has more than wetzool
We have 6 sea kayaks and 4 ww boats. I’ve been in each of my 4 sea kayaks at least once in the last couple of months. (I used both my ww boats last season. Haven’t run any ww yet this season.) I don’t physically fit in either of Celia’s - though I was in her Vela before she outfitted the cockpit and it was a blast - though I lost notable skin off my shins
We brought all 6 sea kayaks out for a couple to play with on Saturday and it really helped to have such a selection.
I am reluctant sometimes I figure you guys must have a fairly tiring day hauling boats and answering questions at an event like that. Especially at the end of the day, I didn’t want to put you on the point of feeling like you needed to have a real conversation. I’ll annoy you next time.
Martin Your friend, with all due respect, doesn’t understand reality. The actual drag differences among these boats at about 4 knots is soo negligeable it’s insignificant.
The T165 is a great boat as well, but folk get to touting their “brand” or choice. Most of those comments are highly biased and it’s a case of contagen behavior / confirmation bias.
Consider the recent Tsunami Rangers, extreme water race won by a guy in a plastic Chatahm 16! Clearly a great paddler, but why would a great paddler choose the so called slowest boat???
“Perception” is a huge thing, and the 16’s high volume bow which makes it terrific in big seas, makes it noisier in flat water, thus the perception is that it is slow. I actually find mine to be slightly faster at cruise than my Romany and slightly slower than an Avocet, but this is about .1 knot difference. At a 4 knot cruise it’s a wash. Anyone who says otherwise is not dealing with facts.
So, I would NEVER push any brand over another, rather would caution you against making assumptions about any boat based on consumer comments. Like wilso says, he appreciated things about a boat he couldn’t have understood in his earlier days. In a way we’re all in that position. It’s the marketers who want to keep consumers dumb and feed on their emotion.
I say if speed is the driver, choose another class of boats. If not, choose the one in this class that fits you best and is most playful for you, feels “right” to you.
The last time I got the “16 is slow” lecture from some quite well known guru’s I simply poured on the coal for about an hour and arrived back at camp in time to have a beer while they pulled up. To their credit they altered their perception about the boat on that trip completely. They are just boats, and are quite similar in this class.
Drag figures are calculations usually made assuming flat water and steady propulsion. They may not reflect ones own experience paddling a boat on real water. However, in case statistics make things concrete, here it goes:
According to Sea Kayaker:
at 3 knots (often noted usual cruising speed);
Necky Chatham 16 produces 1.93 ft pounds of drag,
Valley Avocet = 1.92,
Wilderness Systems Tempest 165 = 1.90
Valley Nordkapp LV = 1.88,
Nigel Foster Legend = 2,
Epic Endurance 18 = 2.03,
Valley Rapier 20 = 2.04.
The drag difference at normal cruising speed among these boat is truly negligible - though at this pace the Chatham 16 produces less drag than the 'fast' boats (Epic Endurance and Rapier).
The Rapier 20, which Sea Kayaker notes as the fastest sea kayak they've ever reviewed, produces not even a half pound less drag at 4 knots than a Chatham 16. The difference among Brit style boats is even less.
Thanks wilso Martin’s friend is slow, and my guess is none of these boats will magically make him keep up, BUT, a more directionally stable boat may help his stroke.
Anymore I think the CH 16 is stricktly an ocean play tour boat for advanced paddlers. In those circles it shines, and wins “races”. Go figure?
"boat for advanced paddlers" When I first got into a Chatham 16 in 2003 or 2004, I thought it was a neat boat. Getting back in one on Friday after 5-6 years of experience and skills building I found it a VERY neat boat.
It is a boat for paddlers who wish to learn and/or play. It is confidence inspiring enough for novice and advancing paddlers to enjoy. It is responsive enough for advanced paddlers to not outgrow. Pretty cool!!
Lastly, before going to surf! It is a superb boat! All of the boats listed are superb boats. I liked the T165 a lot as well.
This stuff is like trying on ski boots. Your pal may love Scarpa’s but the Garmont may fit your foot better. End of issue…
What’s important is not “what” boat you are in, rather what you do in “whatever” boat you are in.
Beginners fuss on and on about this or that boat wanting to make sure they bought a good one. They also blame things on boats that are beyond their skill level.
Advanced paddlers get in whatever is given to them, or they have, and go paddle. They WILL fight over paddles mind you!
The “which day boat is faster” threads crack me up. They really do. All that agonizing over Broze or Winters drag figures go up in flames the first 18 inch wave shows up from behind.
Consider plastic… …for your second boat, so you can add rock gardening to the list of uses. It’s really great not to have to fear for gelcoat when out playing in the rocks. Also, that goes with maneuverability, so it’s a double.
My boat for your list plus rocks is an Avocet RM, and I couldn’t be happier with it. I prefer it to the Romany.
Though the Romany was designed starting with a Pintail mold, I've been told by more than one coach/paddler more knowledgable than me that Aled and Nigel's goal with the Romany was to acheive performance similar to a Coaster.
The Coaster was introduced in 1985 and was a notable departure from previous sea kayaks. Its performance inspired a number of designer/paddlers who enjoyed a boat built for play. http://www.marinerkayaks.com/mkhtml/Coasterw.html
The Mariner Coaster influence is likely part of what accounts for the Romany feeling very different from either a North Shore Shoreline or Valley Pintail, both of which were British dayboats which preceeded the Romany.
The Chatham 16 was designed by two accomplished paddlers who were well used to the Romany and familiar with the Coaster. In all the talk about British boat lineage and influence, the impact of this West Coast North American design is often over shadowed ;-)
You know that saying? “paddle circles around the others”?
How about “paddle circles INSIDE the others”? That’s what happened in a group when we were told to paddle in a confined area. The outer ring was crowded enough that I slipped the boat (Romany LV) into a tighter ring inside them. Now, maybe nobody else tried to do the same, but my point is that the Romany was so easy to paddle in a tight ring, on edge, that it was like an instinctive reaction.
