Maybe
Or just design and build your own stuff for yourself. How many P-netters would buy a Viper?? Given they represent a realistic sub-set of the touring market / demographic I think you’d fail miserably cuz it doesn’t represent what they are used to seeing. Now, take a young WW jock(ette) and ask them which boat they would be drawn to for ocean play and I’d guess a different outcome.
I seriously wonder how many re-makes of the same ole stuff can be supported by the current market? I’, also sitting thinking none of the newer trad kayaks would outdo a Mariner Coaster for ocean play either (MO). It’s more about marketing and getting a buzz up on the latest boat I think. Seriously, how many displacement 16 ish footers can you make within certain dimmensions??
Saw a little Pygmy recently that caught ny eye, and I also think the SUP market may influence future touring craft as well.
Just thinking out loud here folk…
take a young WW jock(ette) and ask them
"…take a young WW jock(ette) and ask them which boat they would be drawn to for ocean play and I’d guess a different outcome." - salty
The 2 ww paddlers I most recently met (who do not know each other) who decided to pick up sea kayaks both got Pintails 
I’m genuinely wondering… if Valley can successfully produce surf kayaks and Rapiers in addition to their main sea kayak range, might there be an audience for something along the lines of a Viper?
Might Pyranha be ideally placed to use their deep ww experience to produce a P&H (or Pyranha) boat more along the lines of a Viper than the Delphin?
Maybe…Graham would "get it "
+1
Been working on our own designs for awhile…not there yet. It sure is fun pushing envelopes though!
Delphin availability
delphins are just now coming available in the US - a few scattered around the coasts currently (good timing on the east coast). Next week they will be avaialable thru most PH dealers…and readily available to try.
the airies (composite version) is coming along nicely too - and plans to be introduced properly in Germany early october at the Kanu Messe show.
PH Asheville, NC
Some more info
These 2 articles from Canoe & Kayak UK provide more response to a number of boats under discussion:
http://www.canoekayak.co.uk/categories/articleitem.asp?item=638
http://www.canoekayak.co.uk/categories/articleitem.asp?cate=8&topic=24&item=34
Great articles.
Thanks for posting
Similar Thoughts…
"Those looking for more of a performance plastic sea kayak, or a multi-day/expedition style boat however may find it a little too pedestrian for their tastes."
When I rented the smaller Zephyr and paddled it at the coast I found it didn't do anything significantly better than anything my T165 could do. Yeah, it was different, but not different enough.
Keep at it…
The next level won’t come from the established brands. They are too busy fighting over a dwindling marlet share… What happens when the “sea kayakers” are dead? That aint too far from now!
delphin
Great Outdoor Provision Company will be getting a delphin shipped out next week - as well - Sea Kayak Carolina in Charleston already has one…and they are getting a whole fleet next week as well…so should be a few places in the NC/SC region. Kayak Depot in Asheville - has all models available for demo any time.
Any at Downeast?
Will there be any Delphins at the Downeast Sea Kayaking Symposium in Bar Harbor next weekend? A few of us would greatly like to play with the boat.
A number of the featured coaches are P&H paddlers…
Thanks
I bike with a local GOPCo manager. I’ll put him to work finding me a Delphin to try.
Fishing
seems like it might be the hottest kayaking segment at the moment - just a guess. Look at Wilderness Systems trying to position themselves with some new offereings. One even has a Captain’s Seat! Even the main page of the website features a lot on fishing. One new model looks kind of like the Native boats.
Fishing is recession proof and a relatively inexpensive hobby, but those that have $ will spend big bucks on gear.
Sea kayak market = small
Whitewater/Surf kayak market = pretty big
GP kayak market = pretty big
Angler kayak market = hot! big potential
sigh - us sea kayakers will just have to live with the (too?) many choices that already exist.
Best,
~wetzool
Fishing is BIG, as are SUP’s
Not sure WW and surf would be “big”??? Agree, the fishing gig is and has been a big plus for the manufacturers. Consider a company like JOI that will sell 100,000 rec boats and sit atops including fishing boats, and “maybe” 700 composite sea kayaks (total)a year! A successful new touring boat in plastic “may” sell over 500, whilst a rec model may be 5000 and dealers are screaming for it! Cost to produce rec boat is half and margin is double!! What ya gonna do if you’re an MBA with shareholders to satisfy.
No secrets here folk…follow the money. Which is why when a trad sea kayak company introduces yet another re-make I wonder about the math???
ww is so big
The numbers of ww boats sold annually dwarfs the figures for sea kayaks.
It was noted last year: "Jackson Kayak expects to manufacture more than 7,000 boats by year's end, about the same number as last year's record turnout, if not more, despite the economic downturn."
http://wbusinessnews.blogspot.com/2009/10/jackson-kayak-tops-industry-sales-in.html
Compare that to the figures Salty notes for touring boats.
Nigel Dennis in an interview for the BBC in late 2004 stated he ships 350 to the US. http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/business/4045111.stm
Peter Orton noted that Valley was selling about the same number of composite boats in the US at the time.
hehe
well, i have both z155 and t165 and they sure are different. the T165 have a larger BOXY area and is slimmer. it has somewhat harder chines and would be my kayak of choice for wind and waves. The zephyr is wider and have a quite small boxy area around the cockpit, that might work as a “pivot point” sides are flared so the width by the waterline is much less than 57. its very easy to manouver. Having the cockpit behind the center and its low wide rear deck the Z is i guess perfect for play in bigger waves surf etc…despite being a surprisingly fast kayakk. in wind and heavy conditions id take the tempest, over anything ive tried. still waiting for my PINTAIL.
that is propably a nice kayak for rolling…
the zephyr is avery ice rolling kayak by the way…
yes
ben Lawry currently has one. and, depending on when they arrive this week (hopefully tuesday) there should be a few more of the team with boats at that event. Sam and Carl over at Osprey have a couple they’ve been playin with as well - in RI.
Ability to change…
This is just anecdotal, but around here the same change that could produce a ceiling in what many would call sea kayaking seems to be producing a really nice bump for WW kayaking. By sea kayaking I mean paddling longer, expedition-equipped, more expensive boats that are designed to go into solid ocean conditions - I’ll leave off the question of whether the paddler in said boat could handle what the boat was designed to.
Both sea kayaking and what we are seeing in WW around here are profiting from a boom in participation by people who are approaching or at the age of grey hair. Sea kayaking because of the cost, my guess is WW because that is the group that has leisure time and the ability to retire early compared to younger folks who are trying to start a life with crippling college loans and at best shaky assurances about having affordable health insurance. So on the class 2/sometimes 3 runs in this area classes that used to be full of 20-somethings in boats like Inazones or now Jackson Fun boats are loaded with white haired folks in creekers. In sum, WW is showing a really solid ability to change in terms of its population base.
In both cases this population of boomers may max out then drop as those like me hit the nursing homes… but it’ll be a lot cheaper to replace in WW than in sea kayaking. So time will tell - in any case it hasn’t happened yet so we are all guessing.
WW shelf life
The difference for WW is that a given boat model may be HOT for a year or two till the next latest and greatest hits the market. Even EJ melts recreational boats and they probably make it possible to do what he loves best…WW boats.
There’s a ton of competition and less margin, but a lot more innovation for sure.
The next ten years will be interesting I think.
Pintail
I finally got to paddle a Pintail on Sunday. Traded off my Nordlow for a Pintail for a while on the Great Sacandaga Lake in some stiff winds, chop, and wind blown waves.
What a fun boat! It is the most fluid feeling sea kayak I’ve ever paddled. I did give in on a beam wind crossing and use some skeg… It is the loosest sea kayak I’ve been in - but we all know this
What surprised me most was how confidence inspiring the boat felt in lumpy water. I’m beginning to understand why those who have Pintails tend to keep them!