Surf Kayak info - where to start?

Paddlers' Place
#1

I forget if Sing or String is the resident surf kayaker here, but I have some questions. My interest was peaked after spending an afternoon with the great Merv Larson. I didn’t know who he was at the time but after watching his old videos, I think I could get behind the surf kayak. He does some amazing things like a forward eskimo roll, one of the most impressive moves I’ve ever seen (mid-way through the segment in the video linked below)

Basically, if I want to look into a surf kayak, where should I go (any dedicated forums?) / what should I know as a total newbie? I’ll start looking for a boat in the semi-near future, but figure I should learn the basics.

Check out Merv Larson paddling beginning at 1:04:20
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CzhKDusI9as

Good info I found here too:
https://www.swaylocks.com/groups/merv-larson-surf-ski-epoxy-or-poly-and-other-s

Thanks

#2

Sing will be along shortly with all the info you need. Happy Surfing!

#3

Some good info here http://www.surfkayakskills.com

#4

@MCImes said:
I forget if Sing or String is the resident surf kayaker here, but I have some questions. My interest was peaked after spending an afternoon with the great Merv Larson. I didn’t know who he was at the time but after watching his old videos, I think I could get behind the surf kayak. He does some amazing things like a forward eskimo roll, one of the most impressive moves I’ve ever seen (mid-way through the segment in the video linked below)

Basically, if I want to look into a surf kayak, where should I go (any dedicated forums?) / what should I know as a total newbie? I’ll start looking for a boat in the semi-near future, but figure I should learn the basics.

Check out Merv Larson paddling beginning at 1:04:20

Thanks

Merv Larson is seen as one of the pioneers in the US paddle surf scene out in the west coast. Where Larson is associated more with waveski, his contemporary, Mike Johnson, is more associated with the the development of the American surf kayak, the Mako and min-Mako, through his partnership with PS composite which made custom composite ww and squirt boats. His Mako attempted to put a “Larson inspired” waveski bottom onto a decked boat. Here is an interview with Johnson:

http://www.uswaveski.com/uncategorized/mike-johnson-interview-and-qa/

Both SeaDart and I started about the same time in the US surf paddle scene, probably almost 20 years. He has as much information and probably more since there is way more of active surf paddle scene out on the west coast (where I met him on a visit to santa cruz). He knows some of the folks who are/were active competitors who help spurred the expansion and development of surf craft design and manufacturing. Should also note there were/are (more) active surf paddling communities outside of the US, i.e. Australia, South Africa, France, Portugal, Ireland, which are also pushing the edge of paddle surf design. The overall thrust has been for shorter, lighter surf crafts (both waveski and surf kayaks) that lend to much more air maneuvers that are largely pushed and elevated by the young, strong and fearless athletic types, Just like in the board surfing, snowboarding and skateboarding arenas.

Some manufacturers and shapers to check out:

Waveskis: Infinity, Island Waveski, Tyler Lausten, MacSki (USA); KS, RTM, Solamanski (France), Wavemaster, Raider (Australia), Tsunami (NZ), Atlantic Waveski (UK)

Surf kayaks: PS Composite, Wold (USA), Mega (UK), Murky Water (Can), Watertech (Portugal),

Surf SOT manufacturers: Ocean Kayak, Cobra, Perception, Wilderness System

sing

My past and current surf crafts: Riot Boogie, Wold Epic, Mega Venom, 6 custom Island Waveskis, 1 custom Infinity Waveski

#5

Very interesting. Thanks for the info Sing. I think I am referring to a Wave Ski more than Surf Kayak i guess.

If you’ve paddled both, which do you prefer and why? I kinda like the look of the wave ski but how does that compare to a SOT surf kayak? I dont think I want anything with a deck, I prefer open boats.

#6

@MCImes said:
Very interesting. Thanks for the info Sing. I think I am referring to a Wave Ski more than Surf Kayak i guess.

If you’ve paddled both, which do you prefer and why? I kinda like the look of the wave ski but how does that compare to a SOT surf kayak? I dont think I want anything with a deck, I prefer open boats.

I agree with Mike Johnson when he was asked the same:

Question: You’ve designed some of the best of each so do you prefer waveskis or surf kayak and why?
MJ: Waveskis. Less equipment, if you miss a roll, you can get back on anywhere.

I would add that I surf in New England, usually solo, when we get the most consistent surf in the winter (unlike MJ in the west coast). Try to put on tight bombproof skirt in the winter with cold hands, then try crabbing the surf boat out with the fins firmly implanted in the sand… With waveski, you hop on in knee to thigh deep water, strap on and paddle through the breakzone. If you blow a roll in a surf kayak and bail, you are in for a long cold swim to shore while getting pounded by breaking waves (been there, done that). With waveski, you hang onto either lapbelt and/or footstraps, wait for a lull in the sets and remount. This last attribute has made my winter surfing exponentially safer.

Finally, I think waveskis look and perform much more like a surf board. It is essentially a surf board with depth of foam and placement of the fins customed to address the specific weight and placement of the paddler. My surfing style approximates more the style of the aggressive longboarders, with lots of cutbacks, rollercoasting and occasional small air. When I used to surf kayak, I think my surfing was more inspired by white water type of tricks, such as seen in this video of Dick Wold in his Epic kayak (which I had). However, nothing pisses off a crowded line up of boardies than this type of surfing. LOL!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X3k244ZgNtM

I think I was already beginning to shift out of surf kayaks over 12 years ago, as reflected in this very old P-Net thread:

https://forums.paddling.com/discussion/507888/surf-kayak

These days, I am pretty much a devout waveskier and an accepted fixture in the line up of my local break:

“Locals Only” break: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bc3RpHr0KBg

Waveskiing the homebreak: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zVbibCf4Xhg&t=6s

sing

#7

An entry level for a SOT surf kayak might be one of the consumer products, like a Dagger Kaos or Cobra Strike. They don’t have the seat belts that wave skis often use, but you can get thigh straps which would allow them tto possibly be rolled (I don’t think I ever rolled the Strike I used to own).

#8

I’m afraid surf kayaking is pretty much dead in on the west coast of the US. There are two competitions each year, the grand daddy is the Santa Cruz paddle festival (late March every year) that now includes Stand Up Paddle surfing and there are two events in Washington State which are not too well attended. The US Waveski Competition at Ventura (next week), has a division for surf kayaks, but they usually don’t field many competitors. If you want a new surf Kayak, Murky Waters, PS Composites with the Mako line or the Mega kayaks coming from the UK are about your only choices. A lot of us still are into waveski surfing, but I’m afraid that is dying out too. Look for Tyler Lausten Waveskis , he makes some of the best high performance skis in the US. Infinity Surfboards will make you a custom ski for about $2000 so not cheap, you can get a surftech Infinity ski for less money. I still surf Infinity skis, I had a custom stinger/mosquito hybrid made several years ago and it’s my favorite. Island Waveskis also makes decent skis and are on the east coast. You can find used Tsunami and Wavemaster skis from NZ and OZ and Macski from south africa is now in California, I don’t have a current link, but he makes really nice skis. A lot of the entry level surf boats like the Kaos and the Cobra Strike are no longer made. I have a Cobra Strike that I take people out on to expose them to paddle surfing. Most of the kayak surfers and waveski surfers on the west coast have moved on to SUP (me too) or have retired from surfing. There are some dedicated pockets of kayak surfers mostly using whitewater boats up and down the coast. I sometimes surf with some of them on trips. I think Peter is associated with a group up in the San Francisco/Bay area, I last time I surfed with folks from that group, everyone was using whitewater boats, but that has been a few years. I’m off for a trip up the coast this week and will be taking my ski to surf my favorite breaks on the California coast.

My surf journey went something like Ocean Kayak Frenzy, Cobra Strike, Necky Jive ( I still have all of those and use from time to time). Mako, and Mako Aquarius (sold those). Waveskis were a huge Wavemaster ( Stabilizer Comp, only dog surf craft I have ever owned, sold it), Island HP, Wavemaster Strata this is a hot HP ski, Infinity Mike Johnson Tri Plane (basically the mako surf kayak opened up) , and Custom Infinity Stinger. I still have all the wave skis except the huge wavemaster and my sons, their girl friends, wives etc use them when they visit.

#9

Oops I reread your original post. There are a lot of youtube videos on getting started with kayak surfing, a lot of them are not very good. There is a good video Mathieu Babarit, French Champion, World Champion waveskier, he and his partner Caro Angibaud run a surf instruction company in France and sometimes visit the US and teach clinics at surf contests. Here is a link…
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=961rHVJ-Vjw (narrated by Tyler Lausten)
Also this web page is helpful http://www.surfkayakskills.com/

and to get you stoked … Fletcher Burton on Waveskiing https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VClP4BclJic

and Ben John https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KcIqmxj0jXk

and one of my favorite waveski videos … not huge surf or amazing skill, but captures what it feels like to surf the reefs

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zDGnm6ohR2U&t=0s&list=FLXPOo3-wYtWOhaqHJYS47LA&index=139

If you watch those videos you can learn a lot about what you need to do, but most of us on wave skis, just got out there and tipped over, took beatings, and watched until we learned how.

If you are on the west coast I would suggest taking some instruction to speed up the learning curve. In San Diego, Jen, who owns Aqua Adventures used to be the best kayak instructor in Southern California, I’m not sure she is still doing this, you could call the store. In Santa Cruz Dave Johnston at Venture Quest is an excellent Surf Kayak Instructor. In the Bay area, Sean Morley is an excellent surf kayak and wave ski coach, you can find him by google or facebook. In Northern California, Fort Bragg Area, Jeff at Liquid Fusion Kayaking is an excellent instructor. I’ve taken workshops or lessons with Jen, Sean, and Jeff and it was money well spent for learning how to get the most out of waves and how to stay safe in the surf.

#10

Minor clarifications to what @SeaDart wrote.

There is another surf competition on west coast - Davenport Paddle Surf Classic still goes on. http://davenportpaddlesurf.com/ November 10-121 this year. Davenport is about a half hour north of Santa Cruz. Of course, one addition event doesn’t make what he said about surf kayaking not a growth/booming sport wrong.

Jen Kleck sold Aqua Adventures. Pretty sure she sold to someone who would uphold the standards she set, but I haven’t been there since she sold to see for myself.

#11

Good stuff, thanks for the info guys. I’ll have to start looking for a board now.

I see that boards are very weight specific and 18" length makes a lot of difference between a novice and expert board. Should I just play it safe and try to find a beginner boat or, since I’ve canoed for 5+ years (in high performance canoes and racing boats) and surfski’d for 3+ years (on a 19" intermediate ski), roughly how much of that experience translate to surf kayak? I have good balance and understand edging, etc, but have never surfed other than taking my surfski into shore in smaller conditions.

I figure I’ll need a regular kayak paddle too. I should probably look for a Euro blade along the lines of this?
This

Or This

#12

Start working on your roll.

#13

@MCImes said:
Good stuff, thanks for the info guys. I’ll have to start looking for a board now.

I see that boards are very weight specific and 18" length makes a lot of difference between a novice and expert board. Should I just play it safe and try to find a beginner boat or, since I’ve canoed for 5+ years (in high performance canoes and racing boats) and surfski’d for 3+ years (on a 19" intermediate ski), roughly how much of that experience translate to surf kayak? I have good balance and understand edging, etc, but have never surfed other than taking my surfski into shore in smaller conditions.

I figure I’ll need a regular kayak paddle too. I should probably look for a Euro blade along the lines of this?

I started with sub 8", high performance waveskis. It’s a lot more work and tiring because of the lack of speed to get through the break zone, and then the need to do a lot of rolling and bracing. It contributes to more of a work out (and the need to be in good physical conditioning which is not a bad thing). Now, as I am on the other side of 60, I tend to favor my longboard and mini longboard waveskis (8.5’ - 9’) more. They are faster, more stable and yet still able to do good cutbacks on the wave face with the active use of the paddle. Harder to get air (which is a shortcoming if that’s something you REALLY are into doing). And, frankly the longboard surf better on smaller wave days, whereas the shorter high performance waveskis work better on on clean, chest and higher wave faces, which we just don’t that much off in New England.

If I were able to do it all over again, I would start with the longboard which performs well in most surf conditions and don’t take as much out of me physically, in terms of the paddle out, bracing and rolling constantly. with a longer, stabler and faster waveski, you can focus of really developing your technique and style. If and when you really get into waveskiing, then you can add on a shorter ski if want to start working more on aerials. For me, I started with 3- short HP skis and then went longer with 2 longboard and one mini-longboard waveskis. Frankly, maybe a reflection of my age, I just like the relatively “mellowness” of my longboard waveskis and use these way more these days. They are relatively easier on my body but still good performers on the waveface. Good enough that I get complimented enough for my surfing style by boardie and others. This week one of the local non-surfing residents who walk the homebreak beach a lot commented how he hadn’t seen me in while. I kiddingly said, “Yeah I am stale and will try to not run someone over.” He said, “No, I 've seen you enough. You are one of the better surfers out there in the line-up.”

sing

PS. I use a 180 paddle with my waveski, whereas I use a 210 paddle with my long boats. The shorter paddle allows for quick cadence paddling to drop down a wave and then to not be in the way when ruddering right next to the waveface.

#14

Excellent info Sing. I am not interested in getting any air (yet?) so will likely shoot for a medium-long board like you say. I am a novice surfer (on breaking waves that is) so I dont need a HP board to start.

I’ll have to find a super shorty paddle if I end up with a wave ski. I guess either way i will need a new paddle as I only have wing paddles

#15

@MCImes said:
Excellent info Sing. I am not interested in getting any air (yet?) so will likely shoot for a medium-long board like you say. I am a novice surfer (on breaking waves that is) so I dont need a HP board to start.

I’ll have to find a super shorty paddle if I end up with a wave ski. I guess either way i will need a new paddle as I only have wing paddles

How to get your “seat to feet” measurement:

https://waveski.com/seat-to-feet/

http://www.infinitysurf.com/surf-crafts/wave-skis/how-to-order/

Takes six-eight weeks from ordering to getting the waveski delivered. Unless you are near the waveski shaper to pick up, expect to add on another $150 to get the ski protectively wrapped and shipped to your door.

Correction - I measured my waveski paddle again. It’s actually a 160 - prototype carbon paddle from Big Spoons that never went into production. At the time, about 15 years ago, the shortest (ww) paddle available from other companies was 170. Apparently, sub 170 paddles are now available.

Good surfing to you. From SeaDart and Peter’s reporting and my experience, waveskiers are apparently a diminishing breed in the USA. I think that I might be only one of three in the New England area. There is a transplanted South African waveskier in my area. There is another waveskier that I run into sporadically up in NH. That’s it…

sing

#16

HP waveskier getting props on a (board) Surfer site:

https://www.surfer.com/videos/watch-waveski-weirdness/

sing

#17

Waveskis look fun! Although I’d be pretty pissed off and inclined to impale them with my greenland paddle if any came as close as they do in some of those clips. The good thing about kayaks and surf is you can use just about any combination to get started. I know people who have surfed 19 foot expedition sea kayaks, although you dont see them catching air haha and most of their time was spent side-surfing. I started in a Romany Explorer. Seadart mentioned the Necky Jive, and I’ve used the slightly longer Necky Rip quite a lot. I dont surf like those guys in the vids and never will but these can be had dirt cheap and will get someone started into surf without breaking the bank.

#18

@qajaqman said:
Waveskis look fun! Although I’d be pretty pissed off and inclined to impale them with my greenland paddle if any came as close as they do in some of those clips. The good thing about kayaks and surf is you can use just about any combination to get started. I know people who have surfed 19 foot expedition sea kayaks, although you dont see them catching air haha and most of their time was spent side-surfing. I started in a Romany Explorer. Seadart mentioned the Necky Jive, and I’ve used the slightly longer Necky Rip quite a lot. I dont surf like those guys in the vids and never will but these can be had dirt cheap and will get someone started into surf without breaking the bank.

Yeah, I also started “surfing” in a Rip. The good thing about that is that it got me hooked on surfing and the adrenaline rush (over just paddling around). But, it’s a HUGE difference in the quality and control of the ride between a WW boat and a waveski.

With the respect to the video, it is the norm these days to see large number of surfers in the line up of a quality break. It’s imperative that you have consistent control of your surf craft if you are anywhere near the lineup. There is little or no tolerance for those who can’t control and end up running over other surfers paddling back out. As a surfer - boardie, waveskier or surf kayaker - you have better be able to control your ride and weave through a number of surfers trying to get back out. Or, you should be off somewhere uncrowded where mistakes have no consequence (to anyone else but you). With the line up, it is about control and before even getting to the person’s understanding/following of surf etiquette. There are reasons why that waveskier is getting props on a boardie specific site. First and assumed is the waveskier’s control over his craft. This is the absolute minimum (otherwise surfer enforcement happens because an out of control surfer is a danger to others in the lineup) . Second it is that specific waveskier’s ability to throw down (or up) in ways that elevate his presence in the line up that even the most athletic shortboarder can take notice and appreciate.

sing

#19

@sing
What kind of paddle is recommended for surf kayak? standard Euro blade? or whitewater?

The 11/11 Chinese black friday sale is coming up and I might get a new paddle for my eventual kayak. would something like these work?

https://www.aliexpress.com/store/product/Plastic-paddle-fiberglass-shaft-Red-or-black-blade-free-shipping/315626_32626260363.html?spm=2114.12010612.8148356.45.3e40763feeCZfu

https://www.aliexpress.com/store/product/carbon-kayak-paddle-sport-bag/315626_544360148.html?spm=2114.12010612.8148356.17.3e40763feeCZfu

https://www.aliexpress.com/store/product/carbon-kayak-paddle-scola-bag/315626_544355731.html?spm=2114.12010612.8148356.5.3e40763feeCZfu

#20

@MCImes said:
@sing
What kind of paddle is recommended for surf kayak? standard Euro blade? or whitewater?

The 11/11 Chinese black friday sale is coming up and I might get a new paddle for my eventual kayak. would something like these work?

https://www.aliexpress.com/store/product/Plastic-paddle-fiberglass-shaft-Red-or-black-blade-free-shipping/315626_32626260363.html?spm=2114.12010612.8148356.45.3e40763feeCZfu

https://www.aliexpress.com/store/product/carbon-kayak-paddle-sport-bag/315626_544360148.html?spm=2114.12010612.8148356.17.3e40763feeCZfu

https://www.aliexpress.com/store/product/carbon-kayak-paddle-scola-bag/315626_544355731.html?spm=2114.12010612.8148356.5.3e40763feeCZfu

Definitely white water blades, on the shorter side. If you look at the links above, you’ll see all ww paddles being used. Most folks’ have their hands on the shaft anywhere from 5-10 inches from the shaft/blade junction.

You want big blades to grab lots of water on the bottom half of the blade for 6-8 strokes to catch and drop down the wave. But, you don’t want the paddle to be so long that it is in the way when try to stroke as you ride along tucked right up against the steep side of the wave face.

sing