Thanks. Argosy ordered

-- Last Updated: Feb-27-08 7:44 PM EST --

Thanks to everyone who contributed to my Canoe Choice, Demoing Canoe, and Bad Canoe Demo threads. I ordered a Spruce Green Argosy today. The shop is expecting a delivery in 3 weeks. I hope everything comes in then. I picked Spruce Green so I can tell my canoe from my "canoe stealing, car borrowing, no-account" paddling partners new red Argosy (see "Bad Canoe Demo" thread on for story). I did order it with the Wenonah adjustable footbrace system factory installed. I am going to work with the dealer on seat and/or ankle pads to take care of the sore ankle problem. I did some more testing on my paddling partners Argosy and I am sure we can solve the problem in any of several ways.

Thanks again for all your help.

PS - No advice or help in message but since other threads were here I wanted the thank you message on this board. Will take my betting from g2d with pride.



I almost bought this boat when I bought my Independence. I hope to paddle it someday. Let us know how you like it over time.

Congratulations to mjamja!!!
Let us know how it works out for you, okay?

Say Mystical, did you ever review the Indy compared to the YS? I know they are different genre but still might be some useful information there? Would be really useful to compare the Indy to the Argosy, too?

Sounds good
It’s always fun when people post notes about the decision-making process when choosing a boat. This has been quite an adventure.

Now, you’re gonna have to learn to paddle that thing! That should be even more fun.

I did compare the Indy to the Argosy
at the time that I bought. It was a tough decision. Really tough. I would like to look at them both again now that I know a little bit more the terminology and the spec meanings. They actually were the same price too, which made it tough.

I am madly in love with my Independence. It is like a real person! I probably will never love another boat. But, I do really like my Yellowstone.

Do you have any comments on comparing the three? I would be interesting in hearing any.

your demo boat thread was an amazing description of what ive experienced last year with my new argosy. every thing you mentioned ive experienced only i got wet a few times as well… after about ten outings on slow rivers i would have to admit im not much btter than when i started but the learning has been fun. hopfully a year from now after many more miles ill be able to get the hang of it a lil better… enjoy your new oat

Love verse numbers
The Indy and Argosy are radically different hulls.

Indy is a mid sized tripper which falls between WENONAH’S Prism and Wilderness in terms of L/w ratio and rocker.

Argosy compares most closely with the Bell Yellowstone. Same 30" width, ~14’ waterline length and ~2.5" bow, 1.~ stern rocker. It’s a Yost verse Kruger design choice, somewhat skewed by pricepoint.

Question for CE (and others)
Why the differential rocker in the Argosy? Why not make the stern 2.5" instead of the 1"?

From my experiences in the Flashfire w/symmetrical

2.5 inch rocker compared with the Yellowstone w/asymmetrical rocker (less on stern), the Flashfire tracks much better with less correction strokes needed than in the Yellowstone.

Can you explain this? And are some of these models being “newbbed down” needlessly?

It’s actually Charlie Wilson’s fault!

But the Yellowstone won’t spin when you
stop paddling as the Flash is more likely to do, will it? My Rx Wildfire seems to be pretty easy to keep straight, just a bear to get it to go fast. I sit in my Rx Wildfire with foot brace and you kneel in your Yellowstone, so that may make a difference in handling too - your weight may be more forward than mine.

Spin … no
Like I said, the Flashfire tracks straighter than the Yellowstone even when you stop paddling. 2.5 inches of rocker on the Flash does not equate to anything like the 4 to 5 inches of rocker on a white water open boat that will spin on flat water without some kind of follow through rudder action with the paddle. But with 2.5 inches, it is a hell of a lot more maneuverable than a boat with only 1 inch of rocker in the rear end. And, of course, the foot shorter length makes a great difference in manueverability. And the Flashfire does not have the annoying tendency, especially on bends where eddies are converging and mixing with the main current, to want to veer off line requiring a strong correction that the Yellowstone did when I paddled it.

Just got back…

– Last Updated: Feb-28-08 8:04 PM EST –

Just got back from picking up my Red Royalex Argosy.

Gees Louise......I sure hope when I take it out for it's maiden voyage on moving water, I don't have to leave it & walk to the takeout. Now yall got me worried & nervous.

Facetiously yours,


Oh no,
If TheBob bought an Argosy it must be too much canoe for me. Maybe the green ones are not quite as hard to handle as those sporty red ones.


– Last Updated: Feb-28-08 8:02 PM EST –

Just "get out they'ah" and paddle it Mark. What layup is it made of? Should be fun...just to be getting your butt in a boat to enjoy the Spring in. *The more area supported by padding...the more comfortable. The wavy-shaped foam pedestals which shops set touring kayaks on are shaped pretty close to the ankle...on up to the knee, and make excellent padding for both ankle/navicular-area on up the wherever you wish to begin your knee padding.
Have a great time with your new boat...


Yep! The green ones are more stable…

I got the red one cause I’m a risk taker.

Stay loose; you’ll do fine.

If you flip it a few times…so what? Empty it, get back in, and give it another go.

Trial & error.

You probably won’t melt.

Good luck,


My new Spruce Green Argosy
is Royalex. Info says 44 lbs, but the demo and the one my friend bought seem lighter. It may just be that the lack of deck and shorter length make it eaiser to handle than the kayak I have that is supposed to be about the same weight. It was really easy to just lift it up onto a shoulder carry (just like my kayak). The tumblehome and the location of the front thwart made it really easy to carry on the shoulder.

If you can’t tell, I am really excited about it. Wish it was here already.


OK. It’s my fault
A couple each of ex wives and ex business partners are working on a global list of things that were my fault, so Clarion might contact them and pass on…

Another point we all know is my fault is that there never was a RX WildFire. Various individuals may have a WF sticker on their Yellowstone solo, but all those hulls came out of the same vacuum forming mold, and that isn’t much like a WildFire. Anyway…

Tracking pretty much correlates with block co-efficient. The WATERLINE length, width and depth. The less of that “block” the hull fills the better it tracks. To simplify computations, its easiest to compare length/width ratios to evaluate tracking, but…

That depth thing counts too. A compact person will sink Flash deep enough that it will track pretty well. [ I’m 160, and it is just fine kneeling with a straight, but wags it’s tail when I sit with a bent. Add tripping gear and the little thing tracks quite well with a bent.]

The same person that sinks Flash’s footprint in the water may not do the same for Yellowstone. Further, Yellowstone is wider, which tends to force medium sized guys to add a horizontal component to their forward stroke. This makes the wider boat yaw of course.

The reason designers use differential rocker is that paddlers continue to compromise their forward strokes. They tend to keep that top hand inside the rails, which induces yaw. They tend to paddle along the rails rather than parallel to the keel line. They tend to carry the paddle too far aft, which induces yaw.

When we paddle well, like Gremmie, the original fire boats track like they should; perfectly, but also spin o withing their own length when heelked and encouraged. For the rest of us, dropping the stern a little relative to the bow counters our many sins, forward stroke and otherwise, which takes me back to the first PPG.

Thank you CEW, faults and all!
Thanks very much for explaining this. And thank you for all your contributions to boating. I’ll be enjoying the hell out of the Flashfire this weekend, but I might not exactly be in the paddling “well” category. Like religion, a lot of this stuff gets lost in translation. Better just to live it directly and not talk too much about it. But I do appreciate the words of those who have experienced revelation directly from the waters. So, the “C” stands for Charlton, right (as in Moses)? I suppose Moses had his faults too.

(I was kidding about the “fault” part)
I recommended the differential rockered WF/YS to several people who bought them. And, I recommended the boat over other choices specifically because of the boat’s “forgiving” tracking.

If we keep recommending
these compromised (IMHO) designs what incentives do the boat makers have to put better designs into the boats or back into the boats? My point is that the tracking of these boats with asymmetrical rockers is not better, even for beginners. They still require the learning of correction strokes and possibly more correcting than in better designed hulls. IMHO the Yellowstone lost some of the best features of the Wildfire.