Thanks. Argosy ordered

Thanks Charlie and Gremmie
for the rocker discussion. I’ve wondered about boats that seem to have “sticky” sterns. I paddle a stock Wilderness with the forward edge of the seat pretty close to the center of the boat. I’ve only paddled the boat for a few hours but I can’t imagine the seat being any further back. I guess I’m used to stern strokes for turning and a stern that won’t slide a little makes me nuts. I’d rather deal with the tracking issues.


The issue remains that the single stick solo canoe is the hardest game on the water and the double stick solo, kayak or pack canoe is the easiest.

[Tandem canoes are somewhere in between, and tandem kayaks impossible.]

Lots of folks simply will not dedicate the time and effort to the long apprenticeship required to master a solo canoe.

So they get a double blade stick and go have fun. Immediately. Is that wrong? Probably not, but they’ll never know the joy of the Cross Post. So it goes.

I enjoyed test paddling your Flashfire
and look forward to owning one myself someday. My challenge is finding one that’s relatively local and relatively low price and has gunwales that are something other than wood. I don’t want the maintenance of wood gunwales - aluminum or vinyl are much preferred for their no maintenance nature.

Composite vs. Royalex versions

What are the constraints involved in turning nice composite designs like the Fire series into Royalex versions?

I know you are not in the Royalex business, but could a royalex Flashfire be made without losing its best features?

Mine is Fire Engine Red
Boy, is that thing RED. I decided to put a blue Cooke cover on it to tone down the eye strain. I’m taking this one 300 miles on Class I-II water beginning April 2nd. If anyone wants to paddle with me you are welcome, just be sure you can keep up with a Fire Engine Red boat, though:)

a good choice for Argosy layup…


300 miles ?

Just curious, which river might that be and when?

300 miles on the Jackson/James/Cowpastur
Starting on the Jackson above Hidden Valley and Richardson Gorge, down to Confluence with Cowpasture, skip over to the Bullpasture and follow it to the Cowpasture and down to Irongate, then on the James down to Richmond. Starting April 2nd and ending about April 17th. There are two class III rapids you can sneak or portage, the rest of it is Class I-II and many miles of flatwater behind the dams. There are 11 miles of portage, 8 of them by car if you want. Let me know if you’re interested.



An Honest Offer
Congratulations Mark.

First, let me assure you than neither I nor others here on have plans to make associations between you and your buddy’s canoes and the old “Red Green” TV show.

Second, how about I save you some of that drive time to pick up the new Argosy. I’m only 45 min. from the dealer. I could even give it a good testing out for you over a week or two – just to make sure you didn’t get a lemon. The spruce green color will be a perfect match for my truck and camper shell too! This is sounding better – to me at least – all the time, Mark. Yes, then I could bring it down to you once we’re assured that you’ll be happy with it. I could do all this for a nominal fee, too.

Just let me know, buddy.

Mark, take him up on that offer.
I think Rob might even put some scratches on the boat for you, so you won’t have to feel bad the first time you scratch it yourself!

I am going

– Last Updated: Mar-01-08 8:10 PM EST –

to have to check and see if there is a great big "SUCKER" sign on the back of my PFD. With friends like you guys and my canoe stealing paddling partner who needs Class V rapids.


Test Run…

– Last Updated: Mar-02-08 8:47 PM EST –

Just back from a 24 mile test run on a river in my Argosy. Handled well with me (about 200 lb.) and a load of at least 55 lbs. of gear. Especially liked it in the fast moving sections. The river in question had been up in
flood stage a couple of days ago. We were averaging at least 3 mph without trying to hard.Mostly class 1 with a few class 2 spots.
Encountered some 20 mph headwinds, tailwinds, and swirling winds from all points of the compass.

Won't be turning the Argosy loose anytime soon.


Offer Stands
Just to let you know, Mark that I’m not put off by the hint of skepticism in your post. Keep the offer in mind. It may sound better in a day or two.

Always here for you, man.

Sucker, eh

– Last Updated: Mar-02-08 10:13 PM EST –

Who needs a sign on the PFD when you get caught in such compromising positions?

Pick a title:

Under the "sucker" category:
- "I thought this thing had a gas tank."
- "The Camelbak sits on the floor for maximum stability."
- "Darn, that can of Dr. Pepper burst open."

Under the "blower" category:
- "Tsunamichuck told me there was an inflatable doll inside."
- "It only LOOKS like a Mariner. It's really a Seyvlor."
- "I used to play the trombone but now I fiddle with a bow."

Apologies to a nice guy ;-)

Argosy vs Yellowstone Solo?
You now have both. What are your thoughts?

I own Rx Wildfire (Yellowstone Solo) and am curious about the Argosy.

Without going into detail; I prefer the Bell Wildfire to the Wenonah Argosy.

I have never paddled a Yellowstone Solo, so I can not compare a Wildfire to a Yellowstone Solo.

Having the option of paddling either the Argosy or the Wildfire, which I can do since I own both, is the best of both worlds.

That’s about as much of a boat review as I ever do. Others opinions may vary.

I am “still” waiting to see photos of a Bell Wildfire (fully loaded), doing class 3 rapids…something some pnet posters have said they do/have done…Show me!


Isn’t a Roylex Wildfire the same…
… thing as a Yellowstone Solo? I heard they changed the name to Yellowstone in part to put a stop to the confusion caused by the Royalex Wildfire not being the same design as a composite Wildfire.

My test paddle
with the Argosy and Yellowstone solo showed some differences. For reference I was paddling each of them with a double blade. When paddling at a relaxed effort they both did about 3knots (GPS). The Argosy might have been just a little faster. When I upped the effort slightly the Argosy was noticably faster. It did 3.7 knots, but the Yellowstone Solo only went up to about 3.2 and it seemed to be more maxed out. I felt like I could easily take the Argosy up in speed with just a little more effort.

The Yellowstone turned faster than the Argosy. It took 8-9 normal paddling strokes on one side to do a 180 in the Yellowstone. It took 10 in the Argosy and 11-12 in the Vagabond. The Argosy turned more predictably for me. The Yellowstone had more of a spin than just a turn (looser stern ???) Being used to sea-kayaks this was not comfortable.

The Yellowstone had less initial stablity than the Argosy. They both had excellent secondary stability. When trying to do a sweep stroke they Yellowstone seemed to jump over onto its side if I did not edge it first. The Argosy tiltled when I did a sweep but did not seem to jump all the way to the max secondary point. My paddling partner did not like the Yellowstone Solo stability at first when he paddled seated. When he tried it again kneeling he said it was a much nicer canoe and that there was not as much difference between it and the Argosy as when paddling seated. I never did paddle the Yellowstone Solo kneeling so I can not comment on that.

Of course with my limited time in canoes you can value this report at what you are paying for it.


Yes, Rx Wildfire is same as Yellowstone

– Last Updated: Mar-03-08 8:39 PM EST –


Edit to add:

From CEWilson's post above

"Another point we all know is my fault is that there never was a RX WildFire. Various individuals may have a WF sticker on their Yellowstone solo, but all those hulls came out of the same vacuum forming mold, and that isn't much like a WildFire. Anyway"

They’re the same…

– Last Updated: Mar-03-08 9:50 PM EST –

The same?
Are they?
I'm glad you cleared that up for me yanoer.
I wasn't sure; didn't really care, but since you brought it up..........

Note specs below (all Royalex models):

2000 (C & K) Buyer's guide depth center 12"

2001 Buyer's guide: depth center 12"

2002(C & K) Buyer's guide: depth center 13"

2002(Paddler) Buyer's guide: depth center 13.5"

2003 Buyer's guide: depth 13"

-Yellowstone Solo-
2004 (Paddler) Buyer's guide: depth center 12.5 "

2004 (C & K)Buyer's guide: depth center 13"

2005 (Paddler) Buyer's guide: depth center 12.5"

2006 Buyer's guide: depth center 12.5"

Either they're the same, or they aren't!
So, are they the same, or aren't they?
Specs aren't the same according to Canoe & Kayak, and Paddler buyer's guides.

I've owned & paddled several Wildfires.
Never paddled a Yellowstone solo.
I don't know.


P.S. A question?
If the Royalex Wildfire was produced "before" the Royalex Yellowstone Solo, and sold as the Wildfire, and there were no Yellowstone Solos made "prior" to the Royalex can a Yellowstone Solo be a Wildfire, when a Wildfire is "really", in fact, a Yellowstone Solo?

Yeah! I know.....specs be damned.....the big difference is a name/sticker change. What was so wrong with having a Royalex Wildfire & a composite Wildfire? Somebody so dumb they can't figure out the difference between a Royalex & composite Wildfire probably doesn't need either one of them.

And why haven't all the other canoe companies
changed the names of their composite/Royalex
models, all sold by the "same" name? Are their buyers smarter that Bell canoe buyer's?
Example: 3 different layups of the Wenonah Argosys & 4 different layups of the Vagabond?

Why doesn't Bell rename the different layups of the Morningstar, Prospector, & Northwoods? They come in different layups?
Won't people get confused?

Is that a kevlar or a Royalex Nova Craft Prospector 17 Billy Bob?
Damn if I know Joe Bob; they both say Prospector 17 on em?
They should put different names on them boats; so we can figure it out.
Call one a Prospector & maybe call the other one a Miner.

That's a pretty boat you're paddling.....
What is it?
It's a Bell Yellowstone Solo.
But it says Wildfire on it; what does that mean?
That's what a Wildfire really is; it's really a Yellowstone Solo, always has been. There never really was a Wildfire made out of the material this boat is made from. They just call it a Wildfire.
So why didn't they just call it a Yellowstone Solo to begin with; intead of calling it a Wildfire?
Well they do call it a Yellowstone Solo "now".
You mean if I see a Wildfire; it might really be a Yellowstone Solo?
Yeah! Except if it's made of a different material than Royalex. Then it'll be called a Wildfire.
But yours is made of Royalex?
And it's called a Wildfire?
But it's really a Yellowstone Solo.
Yeah, now you got it.
Crystal clear ain't it?
Well, not really.........

Well, it's a pretty boat.
Yeah, thanks, have a good one.
You too.

By the way, do you know what that smell is?
I think it's BS; but I could be wrong.