Just a commisuration, that I have watched your post with interest as I bought a 21 inch beam kayak in October (my prior was 25 inches), was only able to paddle it three times, and found the water basically all three times -- glub glub. RRoberts has a similar Prijon Barracuda, and he plus "kevin" from pnet have been very encouraging. I can see that others--such as your poster above--have actually graduated to a 20 inch or even a 19 inch boat. My fear was that I would never fully and effortlessly manage this boat, and always have to work on constant braces and rolls -- which I am not yet proficient with but trying -- and never fully enjoy the paddling in the boat. I must say, my biggest challenge was the onset of winter, and now I cannot get the seat time that others mention as crucial. You likely have same winter issue.
And our buying tippy kayaks is a real boon for the kayaking sales industry, as I have recently purchased kayaking DVDs and books, a spray skirt, and a minicell outfitting kit.
But, in essence, after much research, questions of other p-netters like you ask, and even watching Sea Kayak skills and Rolling & Bracing DVDs, I can see that it can be done-- many do -- and then they enjoy the high skill levels and speed and long journeys that we would not be able to appreciate in the wide beamed, heavy rec yaks. If I have accomplished anything this winter, I think it is knowing that is can be done. And that it is worth the effort. So, Bradford, although I don't have any of the great advice that the others have given you above, I can appreciate all that you are going through. Signed, your wet willy, CD1.
Transitions Seeing what others have done is just as good as advice.
Let me add this to my brief advice above:
I started in A Stearns IK116 inflatable. Almost impossible to tip (though I’m sure someone here can prove me wrong on that!).
Next was a T160 SOT. As hard is it will be for some to believe, given the solid nature of it’s 28" hull, it was actually was more challenging compared to the IK. The leaning curve was more like minutes though.
From the 28" SOT, I went directly to 21" sea kayak. BIG difference. Paddleable right off, but I was nervous on even small chop at first. Some wet exit/recovery work helped a lot (1st thing you should do with ANY new boat). In 3 months (paddling weekends only) wakes and chop were forgotten. 3 months later I noticed I was no longer leaning on the paddle for stability and things had gotten even better. Some small outfitting tweaks helped too. Next came rolling and now that boat feels super stable.
Best reason to learn to roll is that it lets you really test the stability with no worry - and because of this better feel for the hull (and being less tense) you are MUCH less likely to tip (unless you want to) in the first place.
Now I’m starting to paddle my SOF - which is just a bit under 19". It’s actually not a huge jump in stability from the 21" boat when sitting on skin/ribs - but I added floorboards, and lately a 1/2" foam pad on top of those - so it’s a little wiggly now. It is also much more responsive and lively. I’ll need to get used to the extra input. I just had LASIK and not supposed to be salt/fresh swimming yet - so I haven’t been rolling. Thinking about staying upright makes me over cautious and tense (feels like the first few paddles in the 21" boat all over again). I’m all clear to roll again Saturday - and I fully expect some time bracing and rolling and messing around with it will remove most, if not all, of my balance issues. Finally get to really use the boat as intended!
with those boats you have to roll There’s just no reason to get a 22" wide kayak and not learn how to roll. It’s like getting a bicycle but never learning how to turn.
As others have said, time & more time in your boat. With lots of practice you will get better in your area conditions. Try leaning in your boat at takeout when it's not so critical. Paddling backwards, hand paddling and specific skill practice (sweeps, braces, figure 8's, feet on deck) can help you become more confident. In time, you may be paddling a long/narrow toothpick, on days you wouldn't dream of now, yet, there will be days when time will be better spent with tapes or boat polish. Good luck & stay safe.
Hey bradford, I wasn’t going to chime in here, but I can’t resist it any longer since so many people are making it almost sound mandatory that you have to learn to roll to enjoy your new boat.
So here is a different prspective:
Just give it plenty of time and keep out of rear quartering winds until the summer when the temperature will allow for a swim.
Back when I had my WW kayak I had a close call one time doing a roll, and from that day on I vowed that I would much rather do a wet exit than roll, and I have carried that philosophy with me into sea kayaking.
My first kayak was a rec kayak that was almost as wide as it was long. When I realized that I wanted to get a touring kayak, the first one I tried was one of the Looksha models, and I took two or three strokes in it and thought that I was going to tip, so I passed on it.
I know paddle a 21" wide yak that is just about the same as the Epic 18 and can paddle in just about any conditions that get thrown at me although I won’t head too far of shore in 20MPH winds.
The longer you paddle, the more you learn, and after picking different peoples brains, reading and just plain doing, you will eventually be comfortable in that kayak.
Stay with it, and if you want to roll that is fine, but it is not mandatory in order to enjoy and paddle your kayak.
sorry,,if he's an average sized to tall male in a 22" wide kayak he's going to have to learn how to roll or get a wider kayak. At some point he'll be in a wave that exceeds his ability to butt balance. At which point a brace will keep him from going over. If it doesn't the only thing that keeps him from going under is the ability to brace up from the capsize angle. You only learn that from rolling. On Tomales Bay he's not likely to get big enough waves but at some point with repeated paddling he'll get the combo that requires a hip/brace movement that's the same as a roll. And then he's going over. Tomales Bay really doesn't get warm enough for swimming without a wetsuit.
Going out/back with a consistant wind/wave direction will require having waves off the stern quarter in one direction.
I agree that some paddler/kayak/conditions combos don't make rolling a necessity. I did just fine in 24" wide kayak without needing to roll. But if the paddler is tall,,and the kayak is narrow,and there is wind/waves and it's a rollable kayak,,the paddler should learn. For example a 5'7" 150lb person could be more stable in a 22" wide kayak than a 6'4" 240lb person in a 23" wide kayak. The shorter person may be able to go into conditions without needing to roll whereas the taller person in the wider boat would.
if if a person really enjoys kayaking then they will soon realize that kayaking is just swimming , with a boat…no reason to not learn how to roll, it’s like qymnastics on the water…or like learning how to tie your shoes before going running…it’s just being a full part of the swimming, without the fear of falling over.
BRadford, future roller. I am going to learn to roll, Bradford, just so I don;t have to wet exit and pump and all that every time out… a real chore, and if I can get a roll, would be more efficient by far. Anyhow, here is a post on rolling, and many have learned on theri own. After watching the DVD, I can say a basic roll does not look that hard, actuallly.
“not a competant paddler" I have absolutely no desire to characterize him. I didn’t roll a kayak for two years, didn’t need to. But I was paddling 24” wide kayaks and that’s what I learned on paddling in the S.FBay,ocean and Tomales Bay. Once I went to a 22" wide Mariner Express I needed the rolling skill learned on 24" wide Solstice and Swallow. If he’s a tall, average weight person in a 22" wide WS Epic it’s quite likely that he won’t develop adequate bracing skills for stern waves without learning to roll.
I’m coming from a standpoint of physics,not identity. Once a person is tall enough, and the waves are big enough it takes minimal bracing skills to keep from going over,and the only thing that will bring you up from the capsize angle is the skill learned in rolling. A person doesn’t get it developing bracing skills BEFORE the capsize angle.
I Have To Agree With JackL I believe that rolling can and does help with overall control and recovery. But, I also believe that non-rollers, even tall non-rollers can happily and sucsessfully paddle kayaks.
Jack has to be sitting back laughing. Jack has stated a few times that he does not roll and does not intend to. On the other hand Jack paddles a skinny kayak in a lot of differant places that I am aware of. Some of the places that he has and does kayak include offshore in the ocean. With that said, I don’t understand how one could conclude that a person “has” to learn to roll.
I’m a SLOOOOW learner Not being in the surf a lot in the Chesapeake I didn’t have much time to work on the need to roll, so although I could roll, and taught it the need wasn’t that great. A few years back out to the ocean and getting knocked over and out ONCE. Back before I was teaching…“come on Lee, you know how to roll, this is too much damn work getting back in the boat”,so the next time I got knocked over I settled then rolled up…“oh right,it’s a kayak”.
Competence vs. confidence Jack - I’m surprised you buy into a bogus line of thinking like this, and sorry to see you promoting it to others. People can avoid learning basic sea kayaking skills like rolling just fine without your encouragement.
Rolling is not some badge of honor - or rank - or some cool trick to impress your friends.
It’s 100% about being lazy! That’s right, I said LAZY (and I ought to know).
Any even limited open water paddler cannot always avoid certain wave angles as you suggest - or fully trust the days forecast - or their ability to not flub a stroke when tired - zig when they should have zagged - or whatever.
Sooner or later people go over - and even if they don’t (only once so far for me - before I could roll - and yes P-float worked OK at the time) - they need to be ready to deal with it. Rolling makes it much less of a big deal.
If you are OK with your only option being punching out, having to get yourself back in amid whatever conditions dumped you in the first place - and pumping out in same - then have fun.
Me, I’m lazy. Sure, paddle float rescues are easy, GP makes it work OK even without float, and I can cowboy my 700 in calm waters - but few times pumping out in practice was enough for me.
I would rather pop back up with one nice easy maneuver and be on my way in 3-4 seconds. Or at least having that as the first option and relegating any others as backups (10x more important if I paddled colder waters).
Too many people already view rolling as a difficult/advanced/and even obscure skill. Though probably not you intent, your comments only further these misconceptions.
If a fat lazy middle aged guy with poor flexibility from sitting in an office all week can teach himself in a few sessions - and finds it valuable in the warm and friendly waters of South Florida - what the hell is everyone else’s excuse! L
Sorry Jack, while it may indeed be optional as you say - rolling DOES make you a better paddler. It’s benefits go way beyond being a seldom used rescue technique as you characterize it. Rollers are comfortable over a full 360 degrees of rotation and have more experience/feel for their boats at various degrees of heel. Because of this they are far less likely to go over in the first place - unless they want to. We all know the saying about prevention…
That also brings up the point you totally miss - it’s darn good fun. You must have learned an all or nothing C to C roll in your WW days. Rolling can be very low stress too. More like Yoga than Jiu Jitsu - and certainly not just for the young and aggressive.
BTW - That wing paddle of your is fantastic for doing sweep rolls!
“a” person doesn’t HAVE to A person who is learning on a kayak that isn’t a beginners kayak and is topheavy is forcing themselves to learn basic skills where knowing how to roll is recommended. I’m not focusing on one thing,“people who paddle kayaks should know how to roll”…I’m not saying that at all.
Just that some boats, some paddlers, and some conditions take some paddlers right out of flat water skills,even if they paddle on flat water most of the time. Learning to roll for those people moves them into skills appropriate for the conditions and their boat, not that all paddlers require the same skills for all boats and all conditions.
I am surprised at you too Chris for not reading my post and digesting what I said.
Knowing the response that would come back from the "rollers", I was tempted to send him a private e-mail, but then I figured the hundreds of non-rollers that I meet throughout the year (which just happen to be the majority of paddlers on the water )would not get the encouragement that they need to continue to learn and better themselves at this great pastime.
Lzay and smart >Just give it plenty of time and keep out of rear quartering winds until the summer when the temperature will allow for a swim.
…
although I won’t head too far of shore in 20MPH winds.<
In Themolas Bay, the water’s really never warm enough to “swim”!
More over, 20 mph wind is quite a frenquent occurrance in the area.
Branford, there’re people who enjoy paddling in ponds. There’re others who enjoy the ocean. And those in between the two extreme. And depending where you’re located, there maybe more of one kind of paddling than the other. For example, if you live in Colorado, where the only paddling are on small lakes/ponds and the non-freezing season is only 4 months long (and you want to ski instead of going to the pool in the winter), I’d say only learn to roll if you want to roll for fun.
The Bay Area, on the other hand, is great for ocean paddling. For someone who’s got a narrow & fast kayak, you really should ask yourself “Am I willing to miss all that fantastic ocean paddling because I don’t want to learn to roll?”
I would suggest learn to roll as part of the process. Whether you ended up rolling 50%, 100% or not, you’ll learn enough balance in the process that you’ll feel pretty comfortable in condition. That’s what you want to achieve in the first place , isn’t it?
I’m not a roller I’m not a sea kayaker,I can do those things but it’s not who I am. And yes, it’s not necessary to know how to roll to paddle a “sea kayak”
If he’s paddling the Epic and not the Sealution in 20mph winds and 2’ waves and doesn’t have the benefit of years of paddling,he’s risking going over in water that doesn’t get warm in the summer.
I know you don’t mean for anyone to put themselves in risky situations but absolutes like “you don’t have to” are absolute and may not be applicable for some body types, boats and conditions.
It’s like seat belts,99.99% of the time you don’t have to make an emergency stop. Prior to '66 or so people didn’t have seatbelts. People developed interesting injuries but no one had seatbelts,now they do. For me it’s like that for some boats, paddlers and conditions. You really won’t go over except for .1%of the time,and only .01% of the time will it be life threatening.
With 80degree water and .1% capsize rate it’s not a big deal. With 50-60degree water that .1%becomes 1% very quickly.
I know of one death where someone launched into the sheltered side of a tidal estuary near Tomales and paddled the couple miles out to the ocean. And didn’t come back.
The transition from flat water to surf happens quite abruptly in an ebb tide.
Reminder: Open forum - shared comments with everyone - everyone free to reply/comment.
From my perspective, it is YOU, not the rollers, who are not giving people, as you say, "the encouragement that they need to continue to learn and better themselves at this great pastime". Poo-pooing the benefts a basic and highly beneficial skill like rolling can hardly be characterized as encouragement for continued learning and improvement.
The error in your logic here (besides completely missing/side-stepping the point about rolling's impact on competence) is twofold:
1. You see separate "Roller" and "Non-roller" camps, and thereby setting up some sort of us vs. them mentality that lets you choose sides rather than really look at the issue, and
2. You sem to think that because there are more non-rollers than rollers that the majority must be on to something good! By that logic we should all eat at McDonald's, shop at Wal*Mart, and paddle rec boats! *L*
Lighten up ya old codger! It's OK if YOU can't roll or don't like to get your hair wet. Really it is.
As we say in the Navy: "Fair winds and following seas!" Oops - I forgot - better to avoid following/quartering seas for you non-rollers! *L*