"it’s not necessary…
…to know how to roll to paddle a “sea kayak”
No, it’s not - as Jack and his hundreds of on water acquaintances demonstrate.
LeeG - your points are dead on. Good advice. Brings up something that others may consider BS, but I think there is a difference between “Paddling” and “Kayaking”.
Jack likes to paddle, sometimes in kayaks. I like to kayak. Gives us different perspectives - even when we’re in the same boat at the same event.
I consider Jack a very competent and accomplished paddler who knows what he needs to know to enjoy the sport. He’s been at it a lot longer than I have, and it’s an honor to have him out paddle me any day.
I’d rate myself as a beginner to intermediate sea kayaker who knows there is always more to learn - and enjoys doing so. Not having Jack’s catlike balance and boundless confidence - I don’t trust that I won’t go over. My solution is to continue to work on skills to the point where I’m not really concerned if I do or not. I’m not there yet - and might not know it when I am. Always room for improvement.
the first kayak place I worked at
did a lot of marketing saying “you don’t have to roll to paddle a sea kayak!”,which is true. Except we were renting sea kayaks for launching in a protected bay that still had 1’ surf. The depth of experience in the management was a couple years old.
I think Jacks experience is valid in warm water,once you’re in constant 50-60 degree water the shortcomings in farmer johns and the consequences of learning far from shore with folks unfamiliar with closed deck boats becomes serious enough to recognize that “you don’t have to know how to roll” doesn’t apply across the board.
what they said and…
something i’ve done this winter, in prep for some advanced training (since i’m ice bound at this time of year) down south, is to sit on my wobble board, (normally used for knee stability excersise)kayak style, and balance on that.
i could quickly feel my muscles adapting and strengthening because it was very tippy to sit on, expecially on a hard wood floor!
but trying to learn to roll, truly will help heaps and time in the saddle will of course do it as well.
good luck and enjoy.
About the question…
I happen to love to roll myself once I finally got it after about three years of trying (bet I was slower than anyone else here)… but I’m not sure if Bradford has a better sense of how likely it is that he (guessing?) can get basically accustomed to these skinnier boats.
That been answered?
Answered in the first few replies…
… and more, with tips and personal stories. The rolling stufs is jsut expanding from there.
Why do you ask? Got some filter on your computer that prevents reading the replies? L
Relatively easy skill
While Jack is correct in saying you don’t need to learn to roll, why not try? One could argue that you don’t really need to learn an efficient forward stroke… Hell, you don’t need to kayak!
But why draw lines in the sand? Rolling is fun, teaches a number of skills that enhance one’s paddling experience, and is pretty easy to learn with good help. I used to offer a money back guarantee for one-on-one rolling lessons, and I never had to refund any money. Hell, if Jack would allow himself to be coached, he’d be rolling in no time I bet. But he’s happy at his level, as many are… Rolling does require practice to be real-world!
So, logically a roll is the most effective means to recover from a capsize…who’s gonna argue that? So why not stay open to it, invest some time with good instruction, and see where you end up. I know of NO ONE who’s regretted learning, and I have yet to find someone I cannot teach. There are tons of great instructors out there. I’ll help for free anyone who comes my way. It’s funny how you can teach a total beginner very quickly, yet it’s harder with someone who’s had years of subconcious programing. You get in life what you think about the most.
I’m encouraging everyone reading to try it, have fun with it, and enjoy what it opens up for you. If for some weird reason you just can’t get it, you’ve lost nothing but some time. As jack is proof, you can still enjoy kayaking.
Tippy
This one great web site.I could not have got more good advice and input anywhere!Just for the record i am 5-10 225 and going down to 190 I hope most folks say i look to skinny at 200I have a large frame.And for that realy nice wood boat someone saw one day on tomales Bay it was mine!I have sailed over that killer bar at least a hundred times in all kinds of boats.My H-28,Tahiti Ketch, 21 ft double-ended lapstrake gaff rigged sloop, And many differnt commercial boats that i have worked on.So you can bet i will stay away from the mouth for awhile! In my tippy epic! Ihave been swiming in tomales bay for years in the summer its quite nice! But i dont want to have my first wet exit in the winter.We have a local pool practice every week for 3 bucks and i will be there every chance I get!THANK YOU ALL FOR THE GREAT ADVICE AND INPUT! Will give you all an update on the pool work.
Brad
yer kidding!
this would have been 10yrs ago,it was in the cove west of Hog Island,oh hell, I think it was a lapstraked boat. It was like a jewel.
Anyway,the tippiness? relax your grip and don’t dig deep, let the blade skate out for a wider and somewhat less effective forward stroke. Loosen up your hips. A good way to practice this “looseness” is back near shore. Before paddling out try this for about 15minutes. Stretch your torso around to both sides,It may help to have someone hold your kayak, facing you bow to stern and parallel using your paddle to twist your gut around levering the blade on the kayak. This is to make you more and more comfortable with twisting around.
Now floating by yourself play with the surface of the water with sculling braces. Do it first on the right from 2:00 to 4:00 with the power face down. Then do the same on the left side 10:00 to 8:00. Now do it in the right front quarter and the left stern quarter,front left,stern right. Basically you’ll find out that there’s a certain amount of rotaton absolutely necessary to put the blade behind you (where the waves get you tippy)and have relaxed shoulders. After you do that for awhile do the sculling braces with the back of the blade. Try doing it without your shoulder scrunching up.
The idea is to feel support in the water anywhere around you with the blade as flat to the water as possible without digging deep. Changing blade angle by changing your elbows/forearm/torso and not as much with wrists.
After you do that a few times put something else into it. Wiggle your hips a little while the blade is doing that easy sculling action at the four quarters. Get some dynamic support that makes your kayak effectively wider than the beam of the boat. This starts to connect your muscle and body mass through a big universal joint in your hips.
Ok,now go paddling,and play with dragging the back of your blade every once in awhile with the back face down, leaning a bit on the blade as it gets support flowing over the surface, shaft back at a 45degree angle.
The idea is to get playful with the bladeface and that big U-joint that is your torso/hips so that your support is dynamic and relaxed outside the cockpit,and not just in the seat. It takes awhile to find the right balance in your thigh muscles to not overtighten the u-joint in the long axis(er,body english?) and the torso muscles for easy twisting.
The muscle memory you have to unlearn is the weight lifting one. You know the ones where your hands grip onto a bar bell and all the torso and arm muscles tighten symmetrically. Here power is transmitted through more relaxed hands with blade angle determined more by forearm and torso movement than wrist and hand effort.
“Difference between Paddling and
Kayaking” ??
Hmmmm !
So what your are saying that all those people IN kayaks that don’t do a roll, that do the 13 mile Bogey race which starts off with a three mile open water crossing, then in some places have a strong current against them while other places have it at their backs and still other places have breaking whitecaps are “paddlers not kayakers”
I could also mention the Bacall six miler two years ago too - hmmmm ?
Now here is a proposal for you:
Take a poll of the several hundred racers at the B & B this year and ask each one of them two questions:
- Are you a “kayaker” ?
- Do you do a roll ?
My prediction of the answers would be:
- “yes” -100%
- “No”- 75 or even 80%
“Yes” 15% with the remaining “sometimes”
If you had used the terms “kayaker” and “complete kayaker”, I would not have even questioned you, but to say that the hundreds of people in kayaks that are doing expeditions, off shore, in estuaries, exploring rivers, enjoying lakes, camping, etc, that you would not even think of doing are not “kayakers”, kind of makes me wonder about your classification method.
So you young whippersnapper, there is no need to post your usual last reply.
Just take the poll, and post the results, and if my predictions come out wrong, I’ll gladly remove my post with “my prospective” to Bradford, and post another one telling him that he has to roll to be a “kayaker”
Cheers,
JackL
PS; Are you going to let me sit in that new
SOF beauty?
You can try to get into Nanci’s QCC-NL, but
it looks small for me and you know how small
I am.
That is fabulous advice LeeG
The paddle blade is the support. Learn to use it as such, both with sculling and with the actual forward stroke itself. Yes.
No problem here
Ans to Greyak above - I like the replies myself... I just hadn't seen a response from the person who posted to know if this was working for them. Had that thought as I read thru so I asked. Glad to see that it is.
“Complete Kayaker”?
I would have skipped another reply as you suggested - but you posed questions!!!
I don’t think I want to even know what a “complete kayaker” would be! Are you implying non-rollers have an incomplete skill set? L
Anyway, I hope I’m never “complete” and always have more to learn.
I was not looking for any agreement on my personal distinction between paddlers and kayakers - just sharing my perspective.
I don’t consider distance, speed, or even the conditions one is comfortable to make them a “kayaker”. Many rank beginners are “kayakers”, and many seasoned paddling vets are not. Your B&B points don’t apply - some run it in a canoe. All are paddlers, not all are kayakers by my meaning of it - but they can certainly call themselves whatever they like.
I think your estimated poll numbers on rollers are a bit optimistic. I’d be surprised if 10-12% of B&B participants (FBO staff excluded) are rollers - and less than half of those pretty reliably just onside. Half again on both sides. A shame really - and I hope I’m wrong.
A poll is irrelevant though as I’m talking personal definitions - and only doing that so anyone reading my support for rolling can understand it in context and not as defense of some dogma.
To me “kayaking” is an attitude or, more to the point, an approach. A way of looking at things. Almost as simple as 2D vs 3D, or “On-water” vs. “In- Water” sports.
Rolling is not required to be a “kayaker” or “paddler” - but it fits in with one approach and opens other doors (probably more correct to say “kayaking” is a subset of “paddling” - as that applies at all levels.
If you were to do a poll related to this - (just for the sea/touring kayaker, as surf/WW folks should find the distinction obvious) - it would have one simple question: Do you view what you do as an on-water or an in-water activity?
Jack, You spend about 99.9% of your paddling time on-water. I spend 95%. Probably seems like about the same thing to most paddlers - and mostly is - but I see a significant difference. The 5% of in-water time I do reflects where my head’s at and that carries over to the other 95% - enough that I consider myself in-water 100%. From that perspectice capsizes become non-events. You were already in the water, and still are, and still will be after recovery - no big deal.
I don’t expect this to make any sense to more than 5-10% of paddlers. Nor am I trying to convert anyone. I’m also certainly not saying I’m a skilled kayaker or paddler.
As for your last question: Of course you can try my new SOF (think I already offered on another thread). Don’t let the 6 meter length fool you. It turns easier than the 700 (well - at least my non-ruddered 700 - can’t compare to your directionally assisted version! L) It does like some lean - and rolling confidence helps with exploring that. Stability-wise it should feel OK to you, though it will ride high and be off it’s lines. A good bit livelier than the 700 - but much more stable than a ski.
I will have very little seat time in it by the B&B, and need to physically adapt to the paddling position to be comfortable over distance, so I haven’t decided if I’ll race it or not yet. Would certainly like to - even if I am fat and out of shape again.
Glad to hear 800 looks small - bodes well for Nanci’s fit. Has she been in it yet? Please answer on another thread! The one about her boat or one of the B&B…
you know what’s funny…
I was driving home thinking of this thread,“dang,I left another part out”…
It goes back to unlearning the weight lifter stance where there’s a tendency to anchor into the kayak symmetrically through both feet and jammed against the back band. That automatically reduces looseness and control.
Bradford, I just went out on the pond
behind my house, flatwater, light breeze, 40F air temp, and I paddled my 21 inch kayak for over thirty minutes without a spill, and used the techniques I have learned from the videos and it has helped. It was a real chore to kayak before I knew how to lean, edge, scull and brace. Now I can see that driving this beast is doeable, and that it can be rewarding. I stink at all the skills I mention above-- not proficient like the pnetters that have given you advice -- but I can see that it can be done.
By the way, dressing for immersion, wetsuit, Goretex, etc., helped confidence immensely.
Way to go cooldoctor1!
I knew you’d get the hang of it. You’ll be the master of Clinton Lake before long.
I was out in an extremely stable boat today, my Phoenix Vagabond. I was sitting with three boat cusions on top of the stock seat so I was sitting almost level with the coaming and was still quite stable, though I felt a little less secure than with just two cushions on the seat. I paddled it with both a kayak paddle and bent shaft canoe paddle. Hope to see you on the water soon.
Cooldoctor- Now that you are
advanced, is the Barracuda as quick as reported?
Tippy update!
Hello All
Went out again yesterday on Tomales Bay again.Paddled for about 4hrs in my epic without any trouble( the bay was pretty much flat.Then i got in My friends ( Who is a pro, guide and instuctor and out fitter) nigel fosters sillioutte and started acoss the bay made it have way before i went over.I was fine in the water but i have nit been to pool practice yet ( this Thursday) i was thinking ther is no way i am going to be able to get back in this tooth pick of a boat in the little chop that was coming up.But Shane had me back in the boat so fast i could hardly belive it and it was so easy.Now i dont think my epic is so tippy at all!!! Looking foward to pool practice.By the way i did use alot of the advice I read here,stay relaxed little foward lean wider low bracing strokes Shoulders center Breath.This is so much fun ,making progress everyday ! Thanks To all of you!
Congrats
Moves fast once you start to relax, doesn’t it? (Now all I have to do is remember that myself in surf!)
You done good to get halfway across in the Silhouette. According to the designer himself, you are a a bit heavier than the optimal design weight for that boat. Many more advanced paddlers prefer being in boats where they are at or a little over the design size and weight, because it makes for a verrry responsive boat, but for people just moving up that can be pretty challenging. And a Silhouette isn’t the most heavily loaded with primary stability to start with. Good for you! And rescue practice to boot - great day.
Tippy update, too
Okay, it’s done! Two hours paddling on Sunset Lake in Mahomet without a spill. A couple of close calls when I was trying to get fancy and do some on the fly sculling—get that blade wrong angle and drive yourself into the water—but a very fast low brace and all I had was a little heart racing, but no wetness. I was ready for the immersion, with my Gore-tex anorak over my NRS Farmer Bill wetsuit, but it was not needed today (a DVD says to be sure to dress for the water, not the air temperature as the water is most often considerably colder than air, and hypothermia sets in 25 times faster in water than in air. Bet you didn’t know that). Anyhow, the lake is okay – it is very deep as it is a former strip mine quarry, and it is listed at 128 acres, but it does not seem as long as Homer Lake for those that know that lake, and the sides can be rather steep but at all points I was close to a get-out point if I were to have trouble. I forgot my spray skirt, so had to paddle without it, but with low angle style did not get much H2O on me, and the water was flat and calm. I took advantage of the shallows to edge, lean, low brace and scull. I can see that this 21 inch beam boat is faster than my 25 inch beamer, but by how much I do not know—it was sort of cold out there (no gloves though) and would have been hard to fumble around with the GPS, so I saved it for another day. Bottom line, I am liking this boat very much now that I understand the skills needed to use it. I had no idea how to do any of the basic sea kayaking skills needed to stay upright when I got it, and needless to say, I really find the challenge enjoyable now that I am winning the game (previously the boat took a sudden lead with a 3 point hat trick in dumping my butt – but, here comes the home team!). I was worried about another practical consideration, and that is, if I am paddling with my peers in rec boats, will I have to paddle quicker just to stay upright and thus leave the pack just because it is the only way I can stay dry. Nope, is the answer, this boat paddles slow and fast and everything in between. The only time it is with perceptible instability is when I am trying to lean and edge to a great degree (I can see that I will need to minicell this cockpit to get a tighter fit and I will be able to edge even more—but a couple times I edged to the point that I almost got water in the cockpit, again I forgot my sprayskirt) or when I am completely at a standstill, at which time I can sit still and be okay in center kayak, or I can lean and gently scull and be fine. I think this character is true of any 21-22 inch sea kayak. Anyhow, much to learn, but confidence growing in skills, and pleasure with this boat is increasing exponentially. I’m glad original poster Bradford got a chance to paddle again—seat time, like everyone espouses. Sunset Lake is descent for a training lake, the water is particularly cold as it is spring fed quarry (unlike Clinton with the nuclear fusion to keep it semi-toasty). The DVDs I watched this winter helped immensely. I lived through the help you all gacve Bradford too, thanks.
Yanoer and bruce can try it.