Poorly Designed?
“I recommend against considering used displacement hulls…”
I am new to ww boats. My knowledge and experience is with sea kayaks wherin newer is not inherently better. For example my Romany is a 13 year old design, yet for many uses there is no better boat available.
Are such boats as the Rockit poorly designed? Do they peform in an unacceptable manner?
great question wilsoj
NM
Horse For The Course
– Last Updated: Nov-07-06 5:59 AM EST –
The moving and sometimes conflicting currents of a white water run is different from most sea kayaking environments
The longer displacement slalom boats are faster because of length. But the rounder hulls also seems make them a little more squirrelly because the rushing water seems to get worked/sucked around both sides of the hull. This happens even when one tries to edge with a displacement hull. The water still seems to have more hull to mess with.
With a planing hull, once you put it on edge, usually the upstream edge up, the water hits the flat bottom and planes the boat up. There is a "lighter" feel to the movement of the boat. Plus the other edge can carve better. This ability to edge and plane requires little more attention from the paddler to avoid tripping. But it seems to afford an easier control in ww currents.
The other difference I have noticed with a displacement hull and a planing hull is when crashing through a hole/wave. The diplacement hull tends to penetrate into the standing wave more and gets worked by the current. A planing hull, with a slight tilt back, wants to pop over the standing wave. I think once the bow gets pass the peak of the wave, the upwelling action of the water pushes the planing hull up and more out of the current.
The other place to really notice the difference between displacment and planing hulls is in the surf zone. If one is paddling out through the break zone, it's faster to get out with some of the older/longer type of ww boat. A short planing hull surf kayak or waveski is more of a slug to paddle out on. However, once you catch a wave, the speed and control go to the surf specific (planing) crafts. A diplacement hull will go down a wave but a lot more of the hull is still stuck below the surface. Once on a wave, a planing hull will skim over the surface and go faster. Control is also better because when one learns to ride edge to edge for better carving/turning.
Displacement hulls won't chance much in seakayaking because the environment is largely non or slow moving water. The paddler imparts the foward motion.
In white water and surf when the the paddler is not as important in imparting the movement, the issue is still of tweaking how moving water acts on the hull characteristics and increases/decreases certain actions. That's why there has been so many changes in ww boat designs. Some of these changes is finetuning a boat for certain micro environment or actions of the boat. That's why you have squirt boats, playboats (optimized for different play actions), river runners, creek boats, etc.
sing
So the next step is?
And I am still trying to figure out how to catch up to the changes in X-country skiing equipment of about 15-20 years ago now…
Seriously, there is a question here for a couple of us who are coming from sea kayaking and looking for a way to get apt skills in WW that do not require a 4 hour drive to the ocean.
I get the part that the newer planing hulls will react with more precision and control in WW or in surf, and that is a good thing. It seems that the downside of these hulls is that it is easier for them to catch in current, or have water build up on top of them when poking into a standing wave, so the paddler needxs to pay more attention or even periodically edge the boat just to spill water. On the other hand, the older displacement boats like the Piedra are less likely to get an edge caught, but because of the contol issue more likely to leave the paddler in a spot in the river that they didn’t really want to be. Also a risk.
Anecdoctally it seems that just about everyone agrees that the Piedra is the easiest thing out there to roll, and I’ve heard from many WW hands around here that the newer WW boats are often harder to roll than these older round hull boats. Brainless to roll is very high on my list, since I get flummoxed easily in current. It’s part of what I need to solve and a highly cooperative boat seems a good thing.
So - regardless of what we do for next spring we are happy with having two boats that will be good for pool work and a LOT easier to haul in and out of pools than our long ones. But the above back and forth leads me to maybe hijack this thread a bit.
Let’s start with the assumption that we want to get boats that’ll serve us thru Class II WW to get introductory skills and practice in moving water, and that we’d like that comfort and skill level to translate to the surf zone and tidal currents for general BCU 4 star work (not the Surf specialty). We may, if this 55 year old gets unusually brave, be willing to put our toes into Class III by the end of this coming season. (That is not to count on…)
We will be talking largely deep channel kind of WW - getting these boats has not increased any love of rocks.
So - is there a fatal issue with these boats for the above purpose? I am disposed to think that they will be fine to get us started, and as we spend time in them we’ll have a better ability to try out planing hull boats and be able to evaluate whether they would work well for us. Any big holes in this idea?
Thanks to all, and apologies to the original person posting this thread if I am taking this too far off course. But my sense is that this has developed into a good dialogue for others.
original person
I don’t mind at all I think we all are enjoying th e information and conversation. Thanks for chiming in.
Boatertalk has tons of post about this
Here is one quote that sums up the important ideas:
“Longer displacement hull boats make it easier to just go straight down a rapid, punching through everything. They hold speed and a line pretty well.
Unfortunately they are much harder to turn and much harder to paddle across (as opposed to in line with) currents.
If you put a beginner in a boat like the RPM they are quickly able to run Class II-III rapids. All they have to do is learn the stern draw and just keep the boat straight, punching through everything.
However they do not learn to make moves from eddy to eddy, which is the key to running whitewater that is either difficult or unknown. It’s so hard for a beginner to make a boat like the RPM turn, catch eddies, and ferry. While it takes less strength to make an RPM move forward than a Fun, it takes way more strength to make an RPM turn or hold a line across a seam than it does a Fun.
For beginners, the ideal boat will make it easy to learn good habits and fundamentals. IMO the boats that do that best are shorter with planing hulls.”
I would add that persons starting out need to feel secure and relatively safe. Otherwise they will never try much and they will not learn much. The data from many kayaking schools (via EJ and Corran) is that when you give the students a mixture of old school and new school boats the students will have a harder time in the old school boats. They will flip more often and be more timid. Shorter, planing hulled river running playboats have more primary stability. Once you make the small adjustment of not leaning back you will have a confident good time.
Been there, done that!
“If you put a beginner in a boat like the RPM they are quickly able to run Class II-III rapids. All they have to do is learn the stern draw and just keep the boat straight, punching through everything.
However they do not learn to make moves from eddy to eddy, which is the key to running whitewater that is either difficult or unknown. It’s so hard for a beginner to make a boat like the RPM turn, catch eddies, and ferry. While it takes less strength to make an RPM move forward than a Fun, it takes way more strength to make an RPM turn or hold a line across a seam than it does a Fun.”
That sums up my WW experience 10-15 years back. Looking back, I didn’t learn that much in those old-school displacement hulls. Not that I flip that often. But all I did was “survive” the rapids by holding whatever straight line I could.
Coming back into WW after the 10 year break, I actually enjoy the “play” aspect of it much more. Not that I’m any good at it yet. But I quickly realize I have way more control on the newer planing hull boat that I ever had before. The feel and control is much more accurate. I actually flip more often now, but that’s a combination of both having more sensitive control AND my trying more aggresive moves because I could.
If one’s aspiration for WW is to survive a class II-III staying upright, the displacement hull would probably do that just fine. But now that I know better, I think that would be missing MOST of the fun of WW.
Oh heck…
So the summary is that, on the chance that wewant to master this environment rather than just survive it without fatal injury, we should start researching planing hull boats?
Whohoo - another excuse for more boats!
For Your Size (From What I Recall…)
a planing hull in the 48-50 gallons will take you up to class III stuff. After that you may want to add on some volume for more forgiveness.
48-50 gallons stretched out 7.5’ or greater will mean slicier ends whereas if it’s shorter the the volume seems to more along a shorter length. For example, my Utrafuge is 50 gallons spread over 7’10" and thus have very slicey ends. It’s fun on class II-III. This is the same boat that almost got me killed in a class IV, as I was sterning squirting every which way and finally flipped in front of a strainer. My Necky Chronic is 48 gallons but only a bit over 7’. It floats like a cork. the stern does taper quickly into a fine slicey shape. But I have to work it actually a little bit harder to stern squirt it. I find as long as I maintain an aggressive forward posture, I can go through most class III holes/waves with pretty good control. The Ultrafuge requires more attention to avoid pearling or stern squirting. My Riot Booster is 50 gallons and about 7’4" and has very forgiving deck and hull lines, it’s not that playful at all for me. It’s surfs and that’s about it.
So, you really have to look at the shape of the boat to figure out the function. Slicey ends are made to cut into the currents for squirts, enders and cartwheels. Some of the ver shorte, newer boats will have a stubby scooped out front. This will plunge the bow into the current and dive until the bouyancy of the boat defeats the scoop and result in a pop out. This is used to get air and do loops and such.
So, yes, white water boat designs are still evolving to meet up with the demands of playboaters and their “specialized” moves. Is it better? Depends on what you’re trying to do. For sure though, today’s white water boats are very different from those 15 years ago.
sing
good info…
My Pyranha I:3 is 7 foot something at 63 gallons and i take it for bigger water and the Big EZ at 53 gallons for smaller stuff.
Sing, you need to try a slalom boat.
All modern slalom boats are essentially semi-planers, and they edge wonderfully. They spin fast, they ferry like dynamite. They have to do all these things.
Situations in which you will notice the length of slalom boats in a negative way include a tendency to weathervane into a current during a ferry (correctable by choosing a steeper ferry angle) and when you are pounding along at top speed and find that the boat slices clear through an eddy before you have time to relax. As they say in auto racing, upstream gates mean slow in, fast out.
And of course it takes a high wave and a deep hole to allow a slalom boat to do wave-and-hole retentive moves, but they sure can do them.
abc, I don’t know where you got that
quote, but even confessing that the RPM is a sort of neither/nor boat, one that couldn’t tell whether it was going to be slalomish or a playboat… I can’t understand why it is seen as poor at going from eddy to eddy across the river. The RPM, and even more so the RPM MAX, should outperform most playboats at ferrying across strong jets and at diving in and out of eddies. If the lack of edges gets you, those could have been designed back in.
What is it that accounts for the better performance of Pirouettes and even RPMs on slalom courses, compared to modern playboats? Straight line speed? No, I can tell you with certainty, that is not it.
The slalom course is the competitive version of moving around a river, eddy to eddy, through holes, surfing across waves, efficiently and fast. To the extent that any boat is able to move fast and efficiently from point to point to point on a river, it is going to look more like a slalom boat than a playboat. It is going to have edges, and it is going to have a semi-planing hull, that much is will share with playboats, though the details are different.
It seems that everyone ignored (or disagreed with) my original point that (except in the slalom world) design of longer displacement WW hulls pretty much ceased after the RPM. Most paddlers are going to prefer short planing hulls designed recently over long displacement hulls designed in the early 90s.
If it’s me
that the “your size” is referring to, I am 5’4" and start the day between 130 and 135 pounds, on the higher end if I don’t get my kiester back to the gym on some regular schedule now that the less-paddling season is upon us. So - a smaller person’s boat by any measure, tho’ I might be a bit over the weight. I wouldn’t be surprised the if the designers assumed their likely target was someone my size except a couple of decades ago.
This dialogue has been interesting for me because, until I got into this conversation about planing versus not hulls, I hadn’t realized how much more lacking in specific goals I am for WW than where I live for sea kayaking. I really was just thinking about getting down something any way at all with all my limbs intact and a sense of having enjoyed it rather than having spent the whole time hypervetilating. My sea kayaking goals these days are so much more targeted than that.
That us probably the likely reality for quite a while. But part of me is now looking at the more play boat type tricks, in easy conditions, and realizing that there is very little reason I couldn’t do a lot of that physically. It’s just the head part… see where it all goes in spring I guess.
Not A Slalom Boat But…
a longer semi planer, the Acrobat 270, was a boat I had. It was faster by far than my other boats but I really didn’t like they way it handle compared to my other boats. It was faster by far but I really never felt I could control it well. I could just couldn’t maneuver to catch midstream pockets/lies like I can with the other boats. In effect, I ended up bombing down and through rapids, which is not the kind of ww paddling I like to do.
To be fair to the boat, I am way more used to the modern planing hulls. I am used to having sharper chines than the rounded sidewalls of the Acrobat (which always felt like I was sliding out rather than carving when on edge). I got the boat as a “guest boat” and was not going to paddle it that much to get used to it. Less so even since it doesn’t “play” at all for me. Ultimately, I got rid of the boat to someone who wanted an “RPMish” boat. She was happy to take the Acrobat off my hands. She obviously likes that type of hull and can make it work for her in what she does.
sing
Bombing Thru
Interesting, we had this conversation about a couple of boats that came up as possible used finds. It seemed that they’d be quite fast, and my not-knowing-anything concern for a beginner was that they’d either run right thru and by eddies and/or be too fast to really let a beginner learn to sort out a course.
Though I have loved the feel of any slalom boat I’ve tried on flatter stuff.
starting to understand
– Last Updated: Nov-08-06 10:11 AM EST –
The discussions in this thread are giving me an understanding of the nature of planing hulls.
Feeling the performance of hulls in moving and dimensional water will be the real learning.
Thusfar the only ww boat I've been in actual white water (a brief bit of class 3) was a Necky Rip. I'm not sure where that hull fits, but I would guess it is closer to an RPM than a newer planing hull?
Other than that I've been in tidal races, rock gardens, and surfed my Romany and Aquanaut. I'm guessing that even my 'old' displacement hull Rockit will handle moving dimensional waters with greater ease than either of those sea kayaks ;-)
paddle what you have
– Last Updated: Nov-08-06 9:30 AM EST –
Your Piedra isn't going to be a death sled the way some folks are pitching it, especially in class 2. In fact, for learning the basics in class 1-2, just about any WW boat that fits and has a modern cockpit will work just fine. Ferries, eddy turns, peelouts, and front and side surfing all are universal skills that are independent of hull design (within reason). Heck, the skills even translate across platforms - edging, water reading, angle control, etc. are all the same in an open boat as in a kayak. You just have to learn to do it all with one blade and a big hole in the top of your boat :).
I actually learned in a Piedra myself. Here's how I'd characterize it today:
1. Easy to roll, but also easy to flip.
2. Fast - great for attaining back up a rapid
3. Plenty maneuverable for eddy turns, but not so easy to correct a bad ferry angle or make a last second line adjustment in current.
4. Not at all forgiving of incorrect leans/edging.
5. Spears through waves rather than riding over them.
I wouldn't put a total beginner in one, but if you've got sea kayak time (especially if your hips know how to hold an edge), you'll be fine. I'd compare it to learning to MTB on a bike with no shocks.
Thanks!
Reality is that I am likely starting out in the Piedra. All info is that the boat will handle intro level OK, I am a wuss anyway so it’s not like I envision charging down major WW during the season let alone in the first half, and I clearly need to get my seat into this kind of water to even figure out where I want to go for further development.
The planing hull discussion is getting more intriguing by the moment, but until I can get myself into some easy WW to get a real feel for it and me in it I can’t make a good purchase decision. Just use the time to do a lot of reading so I can move fast, and definately try to get time in these boats if they show up at pool sessions.
I figure I’ll be flipping anyway, and as much as it causes a cringe it’ll be good for me. I gotta get to where I don’t get flummoxed for a roll by moving water. And heck - if there is a boat out there that won’t send you into the drink for leaning the wrong way in current it certainly isn’t either of my sea kayaks. Even the Explorer LV only has so much patience, tho’ a good bit more than the Vela.
It is good to know that the Piedra has some useful speed though for that one situation though. It seems such a dog on the flats compared to the slalom boats that I thought it might be not have useful speed in any circumstance.
speed
– Last Updated: Nov-08-06 11:01 AM EST –
Speed is all relative in WW. The Piedra is a very fast boat for its length. Nowhere near as fast as a slalom boat, but heck it's 4 feet shorter.
Climb in a modern river runner or playboat, and you'll understand about the Piedra being fast. OTOH, those same 'slowpokes' will feel lightning quick when surfing--they plane up and will zip back and forth sports cars when on a wave. All a matter of perspective. And unless you like paddling back upstream, speed really isn't a necessity.
Two things.
First, there is a major difference between WW boats and sea kayaks in edging. For WW boats edging will turn your boat toward the lower side. For sea kayaks it is the reverse – low edge on the outside of the turn. Sweeps and draw strokes work differently as well. Second, flat water speed is not good in going down a river. Often you will want to drift sideways (with an active paddle). Catching eddies is a way to slow yourself down and boat scout what lies ahead. Bombing straight ahead (and even worse paddling to increase your speed) means you have less time to react to what you encounter. It is a sure way to get into a problem that could easily have been avoided. A slalom course is not the same as a river with no gates unless you know the river very well and scout from shore.